Orams ruling delivers “the killer blow” for Cyprus and British justice
Below is a statement from human rights group Embargoed! about today’s British Court of Appeal ruling on the case between Meletios Apostolides and David and Linda Orams.
“Embargoed! is outraged that the British Court of Appeal has chosen to bow down to the European Court of Justice verdict and find entirely in favour of the plaintiff Meletios Apostolides. There were various other avenues the British Court of Appeal could have followed, but this decision is the worst of all possible outcomes. The British Government has repeatedly failed to fulfil its obligation to the Turkish Cypriots as a Guarantor, and now the British justice system follows suit.
The ruling, which deftly avoided any mention of the island’s troubles during the 1960s, smacks of political bias and an attempt to cover up ongoing mistakes by the European Union in its handling of Cyprus. It admitted a divided island in 2004 and now only recognises Greek Cypriots and South Cyprus, while wantonly discriminating against Turkish Cypriots and other residents in North Cyprus.
This flawed verdict comes at the most critical stage in the negotiations between the two Cypriot leaders and may well deliver the “killer blow” for efforts to reunite the island. Public policy and the wider issues affecting the Cyprus conflict were relegated to second place by the British court, whose ruling will have extensive, tragic and totally unjust implications for thousands of property owners in the UK and elsewhere across the EU. It makes a mockery of claims by the British, European and Greek Cypriot authorities that they want to see a negotiated settlement in Cyprus; they have knowingly allowed a piecemeal approach to the Property Issue to dominate, where individual rights have superseded the overall needs of Cyprus.
It is also staggering that the presence of a Greek judge heading the ECJ panel was not an issue of concern for the Court of Appeal. This is akin to allowing Arsene Wenger to referee a match involving Arsenal.
The case will undoubtedly be a turning point in Cyprus affairs, wedging a deep and irreversible divide between the two sides. The judgment ignores the past and present suffering of the Turkish Cypriots and their inherent legal and political rights. There is no real parallel equitable remedy for Turkish Cypriots in the South – the message today from Britain and the rest of the EU is, it’s one rule if you are a Greek Cypriot, another if you are Turkish Cypriot. Where is the justice in this?
At this time, Embargoed! also extends its thoughts and support to David and Linda Orams, who have inadvertently been caught up in this political battle. Their dignified behaviour and determination throughout is an inspiration to us all.
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CCTV footage of what happened now with Ankara. \via British Embassy . Vile
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Vile.
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yiannis savvides.
I do not believe like some that you people are ignorant of what you GC’s did to Turkish Cypriots between 63-74. I believe it is a feeling of deep shame for your compatriots who perpetrated such acts. Even with documented proof, you still live in denial. Attempted genocide is a crime against all humanity and no matter how hard you try the stain will never go away. You may well distort the truth and hide behind a shameful Christian club but eventually the truth will be heard.
Troodo.
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Full text of Orams Appeal Judgement – HERE
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Just for starters. No this will have to do, you know the rest. I have better things to do.
One name dominates our bloodied and tearful history
By Loucas Charalambous
THESE anniversary programmes on television and the long articles about the history of the Cyprus problem can sometimes be productive. True, you hear and read a lot of stupidities and exaggerations but there are exceptions to this general rule.
Some of the protagonists of the events, either through stupidity or naivety, reveal things that are of great importance to anyone interested in exploring the reasons for our trials and tribulations. Hidden in the myths, lies, exaggerations and boastings, a careful person who is interested in ascertaining the true facts will always find testimonies that shed light on what really happened and who the culprits were.
Apart from the responsibilities of individuals and organisations for specific events, the person who should take the largest share of the blame for the tragic course of our history, stained with blood and tears, was the late Archbishop Makarios – not only because he was president, but also for his actions. He created the setting for the frightening events that unfolded.
This is supported by the shocking testimonies that have seen the light in the last few years. After all, the most important question is who set the tragic events in motion? Who, in 1963, opened the wound which gave the opportunity or the pretext to every charlatan and idiot, inside and outside Cyprus, to pose as a doctor? The remedies prescribed made the wound gangrenous and eventually killed the patient.
It could be said that history is now taking revenge on Makarios in the most merciless way, as the most damning evidence has been provided by people from his own circle who were actively involved in the events.
The latest case was Nicos Koshis, one of the most active and zealous of Makarios paramilitary chiefs. In a CyBC show last week, Koshis clearly stated that the infamous Akritas organisation, of which he was ‘chief of staff’, had been set up on the instructions of Makarios, who was directing its operations at special sessions held at the presidential palace. Makarios would even decide who would be given guns, said Koshis.
His testimony backs what Christodoulos Christodoulou – the deputy chief of staff of Akritas – said in an interview published by Simerini nine months ago. Christdoulou said that Makarios was the “invisible leader” of the organisation.
According to the testimonies of people who were involved in the events and which have not been challenged by anyone, we can conclude the following: a few months after the establishment of the Cyprus Republic, its president sets up an illegal, armed organisation with the objective of destroying the new state. This is a unique case in world history – a head of state plotting to dissolve his own state. (Testimonies of Koshis and Christodoulou.)
This organisation instigated violent conflict, resorting to acts of provocation in order to turn the population against the Turkish Cypriots. In September 1963, it sets fire to the Ayios Kassianos school and the following December it places a bomb at the statue of the EOKA hero Marcos Drakos in Nicosia. (Confession by the arsonist and testimony by Chrysafis Chrysafi and Andreas Azinas.)
Under these conditions and with a man like Makarios in charge of its fate, did Cyprus have any chance – even the tiniest – of avoiding the disastrous course it followed in the first 10 years of its existence as a state?
Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2009
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Could I ask all those who read the comments to vote using a thumbs down or a thumbs up to show what you feel about the comments being made here. We would be interested to know your opinions about them
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WAR CRIME – surely there has to be a war for the crime occur?
Blimey have the GC’s shown their true colours and declared war on
the TC,s?? Emotive language or what. So the ORAMS have put on
a little padding as they got older, if you can only think of their
size as an argument – maybe your argument is flawed.
Yiannis your attack on Marion was very personal-you as a gentleman
and a scholar should know better. Surely you are not a MCP too
and think us girlys belong chained to the kitchen sink????
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Is this a Justice?
‘
“… Greek cruelties in Cyprus: Greeks have started an attack on the areas where the Turks are living …. The Turks are trying to escape from the Greek attacks, …. 25,000 Turks have already been forced to leave their homes ….”
Daily Express 28 December 1963
These people left their properties, to save their lives, and never to return.
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Is this a Justice?
‘
“…. Archbishop Makarios, robed and bearded cleric who serves as President of Cyprus, has Byzantine talent for equitation …. His government deliberately provoked the clashes and is bent upon the extermination of Turkish population …
Robert H. Estabrooh Washington Post
‘
Does anyone ever charged for this barbaric crimes?
16 – 2 – 1964
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Is this a Justice?
.
Is J.D. Bowers, the international authority and respected American professor of genocide studies at Northern Illinois University, correct when he openly confirms that Greek Cypriots and EOKA-B, under the leadership of Nikos Sampson, were guilty of the genocide of Turkish Cypriots within the 1963 United Nations definition of “genocide”?
Where is the Turkish Cypriot rights?
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Emir , welcome aboard.
Have you read the book by Sevgul Uludag , “OYSTERS WITH THE MISSING PEARLS” ? You can still buy the book in Nicosia , the occupied part.
This book gives you an insight of what went on in Cyprus during those tragic years. It does not put blame on either the G/Cs or the T/Cs but squarely lays the blame on the extremists on both sides such as EOKA B And TMT , The Grey wolves.
Sevgul , I’m sure you know of her , wrote the book not to make money but to bring forth events that occurred in Cyprus during the conflict years .I have been highly critical of the G/C fanatics and of the T/C extremists , these two sets of extremists who both have foreign countries as their motherlands , ie Greece and Turkey , were responsible for all the killing and suffering of the Cypriot people . Neither set were angels , but fanatics hell bent on the destruction of our nation and the erosion of our independence.
The enemies of Cyprus are those whose motherlands are either Greece or Turkey. My motherland is Cyprus , to hell with Greece , would you say the same mate ?
ps. Can you put the record staight that SIX YEARS BEFORE THE INVASION THERE WAS NO CONFLICT .
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Actually Polly, with 4000 visitors over the last 24 hours, I’m surprised there wasn’t more of the type of comments we saw from “Yiannis” and “Get Real!” and the few emotional reactions to them by TCs and Turks. From what I’ve read from “Yiannis” and “Get Real!” so far I get the impression that they are a couple of nasty people who seem to get a kick out of abusing people. Let’s not let their personality defects detract from the discussion here and although I will not ban them I would advise others to not respond to their insults or to descend to their level. For those of you who thought they represented a Christian v Muslim perspective, think again!
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Yiannis, I think that the current enemies of Cyprus are those that persue court cases against individuals in the face of negotiations to resolve the bitter differences that exist between both sides. I think that Mr Apostolides and his team may have blown any chance of settlement out of the water. What the GC’s have achived will, I believe, turn out to be a Phyrric victory.
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This will be the end of the Cyprus talks. Don’t forget how the “Cyprus Problem” started with the Greek Cypriot’s obsession with “Enosis” “The Akritas Plan” and the genocide of Turkish Cypriots. The Cyprus Problem did NOT start in 1974 but with the planned genocide of Turkish Cypriots on 21/12/1963. There is plenty of land owned by displaced Turkish Cypriots in South Cyprus, but the world seems to forget the real issues that started this. The Orams have been the subject of a political witch hunt.
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Please dont mention British Justice – we all know it was
European Justice. I hope TURKEY never joins. An organisation
that cannot sign off on its own corrupt accounts. Just wait
until South Cyprus is asked to be a net contributer rather than
a receiver of funds. Wonder how happy they will be then.
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Malcolm , since you have come to the conclusion that I as well as GR are a couple of nasty people , by opposing the Turkish propaganda , the sale of our stolen properties to Britons and others , the continued occupation of a part of Cyprus by Turkey , would you therefore say that Lord Justice Pill , Lord Justice Lloyd and Sir Paul Kennedy are also a nasty bunch of people because they upheld the EC judgement that determined that the Orams had no legal right over Apostolides’s land. Precisely what I and GR continually support , that the Brits who purchased in the occupied part of Cyprus land that belongs to G/Cs have no legal right to their ” properties ”
What is nasty about destroying the myth of a genocide taking place in Cyprus hence Turkey invades ? SIX YEARS PRIOR TO THE INVASION THERE WAS NO CONFLICT.
Do tell me please why do you consider me a nasty person .
May I also bring to your attention that this nasty person has for the last 4 years been raising funds for the T/C Tulip cancer organization in Nicosia ,has consistently believed that the T/Cs are his brothers and sisters and that my stated ambition is to see a Turkish Cypriot whose motherland is Cyprus as the president of a united Cyprus since such an event would herald a new beginning for Cyprus.
Where do you see nastiness manifesting it self ?
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Yiannis, if it’s really necessary, a simple trawl through messages posted by you two over the past couple of weeks will demonstrate nasty, ill-mannered insults, and now over-the-top, handslapping schadenfreude to anyone objective enough to appreciate it.
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Admittedly, Yiannis, most of your abuse was in the past but your recent attack on a female poster was particularly nasty and, as pointed out by Polly, sexist:
“do reccomment a course in knitting or some other activity that would be less testing to her intelligence”
“Get your facts right pensioner and come back when your brain is fully charged ! Woman you have been caught with your knickers down”
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yiannis savvides.
Were there no enclaves after 68? Did the TC’s have freedom of movement other then to get on a plane and leave? Unfortunately for you, more and more people are seeing you GC’s for what you are and beginning to ask the right questions. And by the way, de-and-a tests show that Greek Cypriots have no connection with Greece and the sensible Greeks prefer to leave it that way.
As for the AKRITAS plan anyone can read it on the web and see it for what is, evil.
Troodo.
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Goodness me Kiriacos, some of your comments are lucid but not enough
for me not to consider a strait jacket would be appropriate apparel
for you. You are seriously scary.
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Get Real – I wish you would.
The alleged “Akritas plan?
It is too long to post on here, I think, but if anyone wants to read it just put Akritas plan in search and up it pops.
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Kyri, I thought we were arguing that wiki facts were suspect? I don’t think that EUROSCEPTIC ESTIMATES count as facts either.
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Get Real my little pussy cat – you can play your little
word games till the cows come home but semantics dont worry me
I certainly wouldnt want to come face to face with you in a dark alley but bullies like you cave in anyway.
You flatter yourself if you think your telling me to stop posting
will have any affect.
Free speech you know. Of course an academic like you wouldnt give
that to a girly.
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Guess what? Cyprus IS a positive contributor to the EU from NOW…
Could it possibly be the stolen Yugoslavian money propping up the Roc – last traced to the South? Funny there was such a man-hunt for it, then the EU went suddenly silent.
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Kyriacos, please do not swear.
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Yiannis, I’m not saying that you were anything more than mildly abusive. It’s just that in my opinion it adds nothing to your otherwise thoughtful contributions. You would perhaps have more impact if you were to point out what you feel are the inaccuracies in someone’s comments and then move on. I’m only saying this because this is a topic about which people with opposing ideas have ended up killing each other. I do not wish these pages to inflame the situation any more than it is already.
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yiannis savvides.
Oh, so the Tc’s did it to themselves did they? Next, you will be saying they jumped down wells to take a bath or covered themselves with earth because they were cold.
Do you not realise how silly you sound?
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Troodo dont loose time with get real and alike. He doesnt even know the meaning of his nickname!
http://www.conflictstudies.nl/access/wiki/site/conflictstudies/akritas%20plan.pdf
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Kyriacos of course the South didnt enter the EU for economic
benefit same as the Pope isnt Catholic. I agree with the other reason you entered.
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Kyriacos of course the South didnt enter the EU for economic
benefit same as the Pope isnt Catholic.
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Mustafa, I’d post a link to the Attila plan but who needs a page of text when there’s thousands of FACTUAL pictures and statistics: The result was…
5,000 odd murdered
185,000 odd ethnically cleansed
1,500 odd missing
100s of women raped
Priceless ancient artifacts looted…
Hundreds of Christian churches desecrated…
Hundreds of thousands of homes and businesses ransacked…
All conducted by the Turkish military AND Turkish Cypriots, and you want to show me a page of TEXT???
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Mustafa your advice to Troodo is sound.
You cannot educate Pork
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I only debate with brainy people so get real and get lost..
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Mustafa, I’d post a link to the Attila plan but who needs a page of text when there’s thousands of FACTUAL pictures and statistics: The result was…
All from GC sites nodoubt.
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Get Real, you were saying?
One name dominates our bloodied and tearful history
By Loucas Charalambous
THESE anniversary programmes on television and the long articles about the history of the Cyprus problem can sometimes be productive. True, you hear and read a lot of stupidities and exaggerations but there are exceptions to this general rule.
Some of the protagonists of the events, either through stupidity or naivety, reveal things that are of great importance to anyone interested in exploring the reasons for our trials and tribulations. Hidden in the myths, lies, exaggerations and boastings, a careful person who is interested in ascertaining the true facts will always find testimonies that shed light on what really happened and who the culprits were.
Apart from the responsibilities of individuals and organisations for specific events, the person who should take the largest share of the blame for the tragic course of our history, stained with blood and tears, was the late Archbishop Makarios – not only because he was president, but also for his actions. He created the setting for the frightening events that unfolded.
This is supported by the shocking testimonies that have seen the light in the last few years. After all, the most important question is who set the tragic events in motion? Who, in 1963, opened the wound which gave the opportunity or the pretext to every charlatan and idiot, inside and outside Cyprus, to pose as a doctor? The remedies prescribed made the wound gangrenous and eventually killed the patient.
It could be said that history is now taking revenge on Makarios in the most merciless way, as the most damning evidence has been provided by people from his own circle who were actively involved in the events.
The latest case was Nicos Koshis, one of the most active and zealous of Makarios paramilitary chiefs. In a CyBC show last week, Koshis clearly stated that the infamous Akritas organisation, of which he was ‘chief of staff’, had been set up on the instructions of Makarios, who was directing its operations at special sessions held at the presidential palace. Makarios would even decide who would be given guns, said Koshis.
His testimony backs what Christodoulos Christodoulou – the deputy chief of staff of Akritas – said in an interview published by Simerini nine months ago. Christdoulou said that Makarios was the “invisible leader” of the organisation.
According to the testimonies of people who were involved in the events and which have not been challenged by anyone, we can conclude the following: a few months after the establishment of the Cyprus Republic, its president sets up an illegal, armed organisation with the objective of destroying the new state. This is a unique case in world history – a head of state plotting to dissolve his own state. (Testimonies of Koshis and Christodoulou.)
This organisation instigated violent conflict, resorting to acts of provocation in order to turn the population against the Turkish Cypriots. In September 1963, it sets fire to the Ayios Kassianos school and the following December it places a bomb at the statue of the EOKA hero Marcos Drakos in Nicosia. (Confession by the arsonist and testimony by Chrysafis Chrysafi and Andreas Azinas.)
Under these conditions and with a man like Makarios in charge of its fate, did Cyprus have any chance – even the tiniest – of avoiding the disastrous course it followed in the first 10 years of its existence as a state?
Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2009
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polly Says: “Mustafa your advice to Troodo is sound. You cannot educate Pork “
That’s no way to talk to Troodo, yet you had the audacity to complain earlier that people weren’t nice to you!
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Mustafa Says: “I only debate with brainy people so get real and get lost”
You mean you run away at the first sign of facts!
So what do you suggest we do with that piece of paper you gave us Mustafa?
Wipe our bums with it? Not enough…
Chuck it in the fireplace? It won’t even give me two minutes of warmth!
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As an English man who grew up in Palmers Green, I am fully aware of both sides of the story. The fact is the Greek Cypriots started to what has led to the present situation.
What gives me pleasure is that while the attitude shown by this blog exists, then the situation between the sides will stay as it is. Southern Cyprus is a shit hole, over developed by greedy people. I do not want this to happen to the North. The north has been developed recently, however this has been done with some sympathy and the quaint feel of the Island way of life still exists. Not so in the South.
If the Greeks get back into the north then I fear it will mirror the south. I will be sad, but will take my tourist pound elsewhere.
If your answer to this is “good we dont want you here”, then the Island is doomed.
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Let e remind those loud Greeks here, been loud doesn’t make you right. Cyprus is not Greek, Cyprus never has been part of Greece, and Cyprus never will be Greek, in million years.
If you think Turkey will allow Cyprus to be a Greek Island in Mediterranean, which only 38 miles from his shores, you don’t know the Turkish pride.
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Emir , Cyprus may have never been Greek but it has always been Cyprus since the ancient times thousands of years before the Ottomans first set foot in Cyprus in 1571.
So as you can see for us whose motherland is Cyprus we have always been Cypriots , do tell us if your motherland is Cyprus too.
May I also add that the island of Cyprus belongs exclusively to the Cypriots those that have either Greece or Turkey as their motherland have a perfectly clear option and they should exersise it.
No occupier ruled Cyprus forever , Cyprus is ours.The Cypriots. In Cyprus we are the innkeepers , the occupiers the travellers…
“AFRICA”
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yiannis, msg.57
‘Cyprus is ours.The Cypriots.’ Its either took you 50 years to learn this (would be very happy if there is a progress) or your deffinition of Cypriots is something else then what we might think of.
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William of london P** off, how dare you, carpetbagger come here and spew your crap about the indiginou people. My property is in the north and there is nothing I would want more than to kick your sorry ass off it.
You have the audacity, a criminal of stolen property, may even be mine, to come here and insult the GCs who have lost everything so you can play king in your la la land.
I have much stronger words for you, but I also know that this is a biased BB and Messr Channing would probably delete it.
Suffice to say, you are one of the reasons we have the cyprus problem in the first place, take a hike buster.
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stelios ioanmanamou,
just look at the title of this page before you advise any one to ‘ P** off’, it says North Cyprus Free Press. You yourself shoud ‘take a hike’ if you are not happy and can not handle something you are not agree with. How about just to try to behave more mature.
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Wrong stelios, nothing has been deleted yet. I would prefer people not to swear or to abuse another human being verbally. I may not like what you say but I’ll defend your right to say it as long as you are not obscene or abusive. As a simple rule, if it would get you thrown out of a decent pub or you wouldn’t talk like that in front of your mother then don’t do it on these pages. Freedom also means being free from being abused.
The articles are obviously biased towards north Cyprus but the comments are those of our readers and they of course have their own agendas.
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How come this little enclave, suffering, can provide Kidneys to the Nicisia Uni flying Helicopter.?????
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This is just a political game.
Property Commission is up and running for sometimes in Cyprus.
Mr. Apostolides land will end up with the Commission; he will receive his compensation, just like thousands of Greeks and Turks who has already been compensated last few years.
This will allow Orams to stay in their home. ‘’ Happy Ending’’
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Emir why do you talk rubbish ?
How many Cypriots were compensated ? Thousands you say ?
Readers , take note , this is the nonsense that circulates in the occupied parts of Cyprus , a bit like the …genocide that was going on so Turkey had to put a stop to it.
Listen mate , don’t just post what ever comes in your head , you are doing a disservice to your fellow Cypriots , talk sense and people will take note , talk rubbish and you will be ridiculed !
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william of London Says: “I do not want this to happen to the North”
But it’s not about what you want buddy…
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william of London
How can someone living in Norf Landan call ANY part of Cyprus a shit hole ?
Please apologise for your comment or rephrase it
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Morning folks – I see you are still at it.
Yiannis your use of the pensioner in your diatribe against Marion
is funny, you mean it as an insult but aren’t YOU a pensioner.
You should try knitting, it is very calming. I almost wet myself
laughing at some of the rhetoric from the rabid bunch from the
SOUTH. There is only one truth – their truth. I wonder if there
is a clinic where the brainwashing can be reversed. You are
allowed a point of view as long as it is theirs. Can anyone tell me where they sell incontinence pants – if these boys keep on
I will need them.
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Yiannis@
Greek Cyprus doesn’t want you to know this:
‘
Property Commission is recognised by EU since 2006.
EU Protocol No 10 on Cyprus, you can see clearly states “The suspension of the application”
‘
British court ruling, made a mockery of the EU ruling.
‘
1. The suspension of the application of the acquis communautaire in those areas of the Republic of Cyprus in which the Government of that Member State does not exercise effective control, provided for by Article 1(1) of Protocol No 10 on Cyprus to the Act concerning the conditions of accession [to the European Union] of the Czech Republic, the Republic of Estonia, the Republic of Cyprus,
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[ Get Real! Says:
January 20th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
polly Says: “Mustafa your advice to Troodo is sound. You cannot educate Pork “
That’s no way to talk to Troodo, yet you had the audacity to complain earlier that people weren’t nice to you! ]
polly was referring to YOU! unfortunately we have to do the explanation for you which makes their point right…
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Well posted Emir
To be ridiculed by Yiannis is par for the course but dont worry
he, at least has moderated his tone. You will never get their
agreement as they are well and truly entrenched in their beliefs.
Like I said before everyone has the right to be wrong.
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Polly , 66
Not quite a pensioner , not yet , still active and still work a 6day week 10 hours a day.
Which truth were you referring to , the one confirmed by the British Court on the 19th whereby the dispossesed owner of land in the occupied part is still the recognized legal owner . The truth that the cheapskates who rushed like a bull in a Turkish delight shop and purchased STOLEN goodies will lose their loot !!
There are many clinics where brainwashed individuals and specifically pensioners with too much free time in their hands can go and reverse the process , have you thought of trying it.
Now Polly let us see if you have learnt something. How many T/Cs were ” massacred” SIX YEARS BEFORE THE TURKISH INVASION ? I will give you a clue , just one hand will do when counting .
Would I be correct in stating that the ONLY reason you purchased in the occupied part of Cyprus ( THIS IS HOW THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY , THE UN , THE EU AND BRITAIN DESCRIBE THE OCCUPIED AREAS ) was because you couldn’t afford to buy legally and the stolen land was CHEAP , that’s why I call you lot the Cheapskates , now hop along dear find the nearest clinic and enrol your self !
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Emir , good morning , may I suggest that you visit the Cyprus Forum where at least one dozen T/Cs share my views in that all of Cyprus belongs to the Cypriots , that both communities suffered as a result of extremist activities and that Turkeys invasion was a direct result of extremism and disregard of realities .
Don’t pay any attention to Brits who bought stolen land because it was cheap , you know very well since you are a T/C who made money out of these “sales”.The EC judgement and the British Court decision on Tuesday to uphold the judgement was a victory for law and order , a victory to be celebrated by all Cypriots including you , that your property in any part of Cyprus its yours and your alone and NO ONE can usurp and sell off to Brits or other cheapskates.
If you do decide to expand your horizon and pay a visit to the Cyprus Forum do check my credentials , I post as ” MILTIADES ” and may I say that the overwhelming number of T/Cs , whom I consider as my brothers and sisters , find me an honourable and fair minded individual .Here is an introduction at least you can see what I look like :
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28232&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20
When you get to the page scroll down for the image.
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Yiannis – good one but lets not forget the 46 years of marriage
you frequently mention – now unless you were a child bridegroom,
you are older than me.
See you at the clinic but I think your stay will be longer than mine.
I bought, but never owned a property in the North simply because
it reminded me of the South in the late 1980,s when I bought there. We are never going to agree BUT are you mature enough
to agree to disagree – you certainly are in years.
Neither were cheap
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Well Yiannis you really have shown your true colours in your post
to Emir – dont judge everyone by your standards I am sure Emir is
not a TC who benefitted from selling property to the cheapskates
(your words not mine) You have posted that you hold TC equally
responsible for for selling your land, clearly you dont. Just
demonise the ex pats – how warped is that. Fair minded – I dont
think so.
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Polly,
I said not quite a pensioner , I shall be 64 in May , in the UK a male becomes a pensioner at the age of 65 .
I met my late wife on the 22nd November 1963 , fell in love and got married in 1967 .As I’m an open book and all on the Cyprus PROPER forum know me well I hide nothing.
The T/Cs who benefited from selling G/C land were not the ordinary members of the community but profiteers who sited with Turkey and played Turkey’s tunes. I have nothing against a fellow Cypriot who lives on G/C property because he needs a roof over his head. I do not like Cheapskates , at every opportunity I make my views clear .
I attended court on Tuesday and was determined that I would challenge any cheapskate , including the Orams , after the hearing. Alas they did not turn up, tail between their legs I should imagine !
ps. Even at 75 years old I would still feel younger than you Polly , tell me do you smoke ?
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Turkey and the TRNC will never join the EU after this. Now is the right time to get out of dying Britain and the clutches of the EU.
Start a new life in Northern Cyprus. Make a stand for a better life in the sun, you know it makes sense.
Troodo.
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No matter what the politicians agree, do you honestly think the TC’s will vote yes in any referendum after this betrayal – another victory for the EU Christian Club.
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Dear me Yiannis, while I’ve been away I see you’ve been continuing that tired old line of yours about “How many T/Cs were ” massacred” SIX YEARS BEFORE THE TURKISH INVASION?” That appears to be the 14th time you’ve used it in the past two weeks…
Do you think you could explain to a poor befuddled Aussie just why you use the magic figure of 6 years? I mean, why not say 7 or even 10 years prior to the invasion? Why 6?
Could it possibly be that all the massacres occurred during those years, and that only sporadic killings happened after them? That the kind-hearted, peace-loving GCs only turned the island Greek under the Athens-controlled National Guard and EOKA-B thugs, only discriminating against, enclaving/enslaving, brutalising and dehumanising the TCs, only destroying their homes and burning their villages and only killing a handful during the last 6 years?
Could that be the reason, Yiannis?
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Troodo you little belter.
Couldnt agree more – come on property here as never been
cheaper, you know it makes sense.
Watch out for the pack Troodo they’ll be foaming at the
mouth – normal for them then .
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Ian and Polly,
A couple of cheapskates now in a bit of a bother !!
As far as HIS statements are concerned , well the man KNOWS TRIPLE XXX
about Cyprus and its history. Plonkers I have met many in my life the world is full of them more so when one endorses a statement by a poorly educated young man proclaiming that Brits ought to rush into the pseudo state and buy stolen properties. Polly what a Plonker you are mate !!
Want to sell your …properties , I hear Bin Laden might be interested !!
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Yiannis,
Instead of your usual insulting nonsense, why not try something new? Why not try answering my questions in a calm and rational manner, instead of continually bringing out the standard “knows nothing, poorly-educated plonker” rubbish?
You guys continually come over as nasty, insulting, arrogant propagandists who continue to spew forth the same tired old GC line of blame and denial.
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I know Ian but they are so predictable and such good value.
Oops need more clean knickers
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I think it is time to ignore these rants and to focus on the people NCFP was set up for; those who wish the TRNC well. I guess Malcolm will always let GCs make comments but that doesn’t mean we have to read them or reply to them.
Oddly enough I’ve just published a new article without reading these recent posts and have then discovered that we seem to be saying the same thing – it’s time to see the Orams case as a new beginning for the TRNC and to forget about a settlement which will not happen. Although I’m not happy about any Turkification of the TRNC it seems that the EU is no friend of the TRNC and Turkey is. It now looks like Turkey’s border may end up stretching to the Green Line and all because of the Orams case.
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Hi Dominic,
Thank you for a very interesting and thought-provoking article. I fall smack in the middle of your examples, and under your scenario I can continue to live there and enjoy the peace, tranquility, village life and lovely people without needing to worry about these ill-tempered extremists from the south at all.
It is just unfortunate that I still possess a healthy curiosity and find myself unable to ignore reading the latest piece of emotive garbage they have come up with, and also in some cases to refrain from replying.
It is, if nothing else, an inexpensive way of gaining a little entertainment…
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[ If you do decide to expand your horizon and pay a visit to the Cyprus Forum do check my credentials , I post as ” MILTIADES ” and may I say that the overwhelming number of T/Cs , whom I consider as my brothers and sisters , find me an honourable and fair minded individual .Here is an introduction at least you can see what I look like :
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28232&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20
When you get to the page scroll down for the image. ]
Well Yiannis, I can see how hard you are trying to hide your hatred towards not only TCs because they dont accept to be dominated by your kind but also non GCs as well. Personally I read most of your posts and I believe you are an arrogant person with a narrow minded fascist brain so however hard you try to hide your basic instincts, the hatred surfaces like a balloon in water so please dont try to fool people here that you consider TCs as your brothers and sisters because it is insulting for me. As I spent too much time trying to expand the limits of not only horizon but humanity deep inside you and you-alike, I must admit the life goes on and time is precious for me to waste any of my time with this kind of mentality. Hope you surface from denial and blame and stop this brainwashed verbal diarrhea of yours for everybody’s sake cause you cost me another 3 valuable minutes.
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Dominic and Ian,
You are totally right and it is refreshing to see some logical, down to earth people here that you can debate as a ‘human being’ after all this garbage.
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Mustafa mes 85.
Would you care to elaborate or since you say you read all my posts , give us an example of just one sentence where my ” hatred” for T/Cs is evident.
You are wrong mate ! Brainwashed and wrong.
In my extended family here in the UK and also in the occupied parts of Cyprus I have T/C relations as aresult of my
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Mustafa mes 85.
Would you care to elaborate or since you say you read all my posts , give us an example of just one sentence where my ” hatred” for T/Cs is evident.
You are wrong mate ! Brainwashed and wrong.
In my extended family here in the UK and also in the occupied parts of Cyprus I have T/C relations as a result of my sister in law’s sister married to a T/C , Erdogan , for the last 25 years .I have visited Erdogans family in the occupied part of Cyprus , sorry to disappoint you mate but they too believe that the northern part is occupied by Turkey.
Now let me tell you that I have more T/C friends than you will ever have , my business interactions with T/Cs is on a daily basis , so don’t assess my person without knowing anything about me.
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Yiannis, I’m not sure you’re going to be able to understand this, but I’ll try anyway.
You just told Mustapha “so don’t assess my person without knowing anything about me.” Yet that’s exactly what you’ve been doing to everyone here who dares to post something with which you don’t agree!!
Gawd, mate, for pity’s sake learn the meaning of “hypocrite”!
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YS
Your 88
“Now let me tell you that I have more T/C friends than you will ever have ,….”
Care to tell us how you know that, then?
When you make such unsubstantiated comments, it throws doubt on the rest of what you have to say.
(In other words – don’t talk such Bollocks!)
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VW ,
I have already posted that in my extended family we have T/Cs , one here in the UK along with his English wife who is the sister of my brothers wife . His 3 children are therefore first cousins of my brothers children .
My business is such that almost daily I see and talk to T/Cs , a few visit me here in my office and we share a Turkish coffee and a chat.
I’m known by all for my views .
Ian,
I naturally disagree with those that have succumbed to greed and , like the Orams , acted illegally in purchasing G/C owned property just as I’m sure you did too.
I’m against drugs too , crime in general , cruelty to children and animals , evil behaviour that wrecks havoc on the decent citizens of any nation. Are you to suggest that because I condemn these acts I’m a disagreeable man.
The Orams were found to be in breach of International law. The British Courts have upheld the EC Judgments , the vagabonds have been sent a clear message , mate you are done !!
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Now is the time for President Talat of TRNC, to remove FAMAGUSTA and OMORFO from talks.
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Yiannis, the Orams are not vagabonds, they are decent human beings
caught up in the machinations of politicians. There own
government and legal system hung them out to dry. Their crime -
they offended you and yours. So what. They are not going to suffer financial loss no matter what you think – TURKEY WILL SEE
TO THAT just as your governement would have made sure the petitioner would not have lost out financially if the right verdict
had been given.
Grow up, we are all puppets in a much bigger game.
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Polly , you may be a puppet mate , I’m not !
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The lawyer for Apostolides has now stated they will be suing tourists for staying in the Dome hotel! http://www.northcyprusforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3180
Unbelievable. This could be yet another reason that the “Cyprus talks” are doomed to failure.
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You spend all your time trying to persuade us what an upright
compassionate human being you are – now I realise you really
have no idea who or what you are – I feel sorry for you.
I repeat we are all puppets. One thing I certainly am not is
your mate.
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Correct me if I am wrong, Wasn’t it Greek Cypriots who were calling for Cyprus solution without outside influence or interference by other nations?
Looks as though now that is dead, how do they expect, Cyprus solution without Turkey?
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Dominic Freeman: “it seems that the EU is no friend of the TRNC”
It seems that you must’ve run into a lamp post recently…
UN RESOLUTION 361 (1974)
http://www.un.int/cyprus/scr353.htm
UN RESOLUTION 541 (1983)
http://www.un.int/cyprus/scr541.htm
Welcome to the real world…
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British Judge asked Orams to demolish their property within 2 weeks. So he is coming to TRNC to witness, court decision has been carried out.
Does that mean British judge recognise TRNC?
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Ok so that’s it. Does this mean Turkish Cypriots can now reclaim the land they have title to and lost in the South ie Larnaca airport, the public hospital Nicosia, Evkaf lands and all other lands expropriated by the Greek Cypriot administration?
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Polly , sorry , you are not my mate , I desist the temptation that at times becomes overbearingly painful in precisely telling you what you are , along with the other trembling e cheapskates. The law of the civilized world has made a ruling based on evidence supported by international organizations , in that the RoC IS THE only sovereign entity over all of Cyprus , alas , unable to have jurisdiction domestically over the occupied parts , but now it has been confirmed without a shadow of a doubt that the RoC HAS JURISTICTION over the occupied parts in international courts and other international arenas .
May I offer the same advice that I offered Marion , take up knitting , more suitable to your temperament , dear !!
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Don , mes 93.
Did you say Larnaca airport ? The whole of the 3 % that was owned by a T/C which was exproprated by the legal authorities of the land ?
Oh well , another CY44 brainwashed Brit !!
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Yiannis@
“Expropriated by the legal authorities of the land”
Is illegal without the owner’s consent
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Emir mes 102.
Wrong Emir :
Compulsory purchase / acquisition : To seize a citizen’s rights in property with due monetary compensation, but without the owner’s consent. The property is taken either for government use or by delegation to third parties who will devote it to public or civic use or, in some cases, economic development. The most common uses of property taken by eminent domain are for public utilities ”
I know of many G/Cs who were up in arms when their land was compulsory purchased by the RoC , legally , when building the extensive motorways that are now in Cyprus. All nations have compulsory purchases , expropriation !
Can we once and for bury this myth that Larnaca airport was built on T/C land . The land compulsorily purchased by the RoC AMOUNTED TO 3 % OF THE TOTAL AIRPORT AREA .
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Don, The departing colonial poewer paid Denktash £1.5k for Evkaf land in 1960. It’s in the records, if you insist I will find them. Many believe that Denky and co pocketed the cash.
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It is the perfect time now, for Mr Talat to withdraw the offer of Famagusta and Omorfo.
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The GCs seemed to have gone very quiet about the possibility of trespassing GCs being thrown off TC land in the south or has it all been “requisitioned” by GCs? Anyone dare to explain why GCs aren’t trespassing and yet other EU citizens doing the same thing get prosecuted? Perhaps Bill Cobbett could enlighten us or GR give us some of his famous irrelevant links?
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Dominic, both sides are using and indeed trespassing on each others land. They have to live somewhere on the island. Surely you can see the difference between using (temporarily?) each others property and “selling” it to outsiders who have no connection with Cyprus. With third parties in the equation the search for a solution becomes even more difficult.
Why should you be allowed to acquire land and live in the north of Cyprus when I, a British born, half Cypriot, non- Greek speaking, non ROC voting, EU citizen, property owner can not have the use of his house built in 1972?
How would you feel?
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Nice try Jerry, the court would not take into account the political situation when deciding their verdict concerning the GC on TC land. Isn’t that what happened to the Orams? I think many homeless people have used trespass as an excuse for taking over empty property and it didn’t work. What makes it even worse is that everyone who enters the north will end up trespassing the moment they leave the plane, before there was doubt but now the EU has cleared the matter up. Perhaps the pilots should be arrested when they land at Stansted? The law is an ass!
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Dominic, you obviously don’t see the difference between mutually and temporarily using each others property for reasons of expediency and unilaterally attempting to permanently deprive the other side – I do.
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Jerry, no such agreements have been made unless you are saying that Mr A agreed to allow a TC to use his land and the TC abused this agreement by selling the property. But then why did Mr A not go after the TC? I have a feeling you are trying to manipulate the facts to support your position.
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Dominic, I never suggested there was a specific agreement between Apostolides and a TC. There has been a general acceptance that each side would use but not exploit/sell the other sides property pending an agreement. When Apostolides visited his land he found Orams trespassing not a TC. I imagine it would have been quite difficult for him to discover who the TC was, so who would you take action against? It is now up to the Orams, if they so choose, to pursue the “vendor” in Court.
Frankly I’m surprised that you cannot see the difference between the situation in the ROC and the “trnc”. The Greek Cypriots have not made a business of selling TC property, this is not the case in the north.
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Difficult, Jerry? How difficult do you think it would have been for him to go up to any one of the front doors of the TC houses also on his land, and knock?
Frankly, I’m surprised you can’t see the anomaly here either…that is that the only people Apostolides was interested in pursuing were the Orams, and he was quoted as saying exactly that.
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49
polly Says:
January 20th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Mustafa your advice to Troodo is sound.
You cannot educate Pork
Remarkably similar phrasing to RCH777 aka “Crimewatch avatar” on Nige’s forum. Girlie indeed, Polly. Just how many cybertrannies are out there, I’d like to know.
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Orams Cyprus house ‘will not be demolished’
BREAKING NEWS 22.JAN.10
Turkish Cypriot ‘Prime Minister’ and the Leader of National Unity Party Dervıs Eroglu said that the house of Orams couple will not be demolished and they “support title deeds given by the government.”
Fat lady not sung yet maybe?
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Ian, I was not present when Mr A first visited his land but it doesn’t take much imagination to guess that: – It was the first house he got an answer, he does not speak Turkish, it is the largest house on the plot, he guessed that British residents would be easier to sue, he guessed that Orams would have assets in the UK. Why would he choose a difficult legal path when an easier one presented itself, what would you have done?
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Jerry, it may not take a great deal of GC imagination to come to your conclusions, but dissembling aside, his decision, as he was quoted as saying, was to target only the Orams.
This was, also clearly, a racist decision. If he had wanted to at least appear to be fair, he would have taken a Turkish-speaking translator with him and done a thorough investigation to discover exactly who had built on his land and where exactly they all were. Then he would have actioned all of them …equally.
That’s what I’d have done, were I he.
I’m glad I’m not.
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Ian, can you post a link to that report please?
It’s pretty significant, if correct.
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Ian mes 115
What is remarkable about this Ian .Everyone with an ounce of logic knows that already !
All the Orams have to do in order not to be in contempt of court is to publicly announce , as they have done already , their intention to knock down the villa , but then there is the matter of compensation whereby they will have to so something rather tangible , pay up.
The pseudo ” PM ” of the pseudo state might indeed consider the mickey mouse deeds handed out by the pseudo state as legal , however the EU as well as all other member nations and international organizations consider these deeds to be absolutely worthless junk !!
Keep fighting old chap , but don’t hold your breath for the fat lady to sing , the performance was over on Tuesday the 19th Jan at the Strand !!
What a Plonker !
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Hey Yiannis, I’m curious.
Would you have any idea at all about any of the following:?
1. Exactly what percentage of the total Apostolides land do the Orams occupy?
2. Exactly how long have they been in occupation?
3. Exactly how much do they have to pay per month?
4. What will happen if the period they have agreed to demolish the villa is within the next 50 years?
5. Is everyone not of GC extraction a plonker?
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Ian, why should Mr A be fair to anyone who has usurped his rights, why should he have the additional expense of multiple legal actions? You must be a very wealthy man if you decide to “be fair” and sue all the trespassers. As to racism, I have a Greek name, I am not allowed to live in the north of Cyprus.
By the way you have not responded to my Msg 12 on “North Cyprus now a paradise……” Cat got your tongue?
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YS,
I’m really pleased that you have so many TC relatives, friends and aquaintances. What you haven’t convinced me of is that you have “…more T/C friends than you (Mustafa) will ever have…”, as you so unwisely bragged about in your msg 88.
Please stick to facts that you can substantiate and avoid the flights of fancy you so rashly indulge in. Will you also now please apologise to Mustafa for doubting his popularity with his TC friends?
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Jer,
I didn’t reply to that one because I saw little merit in responding to a pointless comment.
It’s the same kind of irrelevance offered by Yiannis when he picked the magic figure of 6 years out of the air (remember his continual whine about how many TCs were killed in the 6 years prior to 1974?). You’ve picked the magic period of 1955-58 out of the air. I ask you the same thing I asked him, to which incidentally he hasn’t replied either, and that is: Why focus on that particular period? Why not ask the same question, but over the period of, say, 1955-74?
Can you understand the point I make, Jer?
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YS
msg 101
Old love. You’re still at it.
Now it’s “..the RoC IS THE only sovereign entity over all of Cyprus..”
Come on. You know that’s not true.
There are the SBAs, remember? Remind me what the S in SBA stands for. Last time I looked the the SBAs were still IN, but not part of, Cyprus.
Facts YS, facts.
BTW your idea of Jurisdiction and the actual definition of it are not exactly the same, either, but I’ll let you think about that one.
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The Orams descision may have been right or wrong but I have been sickened by the people who have been gloating and taking obvious personal pleasure at the distress of these people who have been drawn into a polital nightmare that I would not wish on my greatest enemy. Get a life is often a taunt used on this blog, just take a look at yourselves and how small and mean spirited you have allowed yourselves become.
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The Orams descision may have been right or wrong but I have been sickened by the people who have been gloating and taking obvious personal pleasure at the distress of these people who have been drawn into a political nightmare that I would not wish on any human being. Get a life is often a taunt used on this blog, just take a look at yourselves and how small and mean spirited you have allowed yourselves become.
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Ian
SIX YEARS PRIOR TO THE TURKISH INVASION OF 1974 THERE WAS NO CONFLICT IN MOTION BETWEEN THE TWO COMMUNITIES.NO FATALITIES EITHER .
Leave the xxx alone and look at facts .
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Ian, my posting was intended to show that both sides were equally responsible for the Cyprus problem, something that you disagreed with. I don’t see how in the context of blame how it can be considered to be pointless. It is an indisputable fact that the first intercommunal violence leading up to independence was started by TCs whilst the island was under British rule. There is loads of information here: – http://web.archive.org/web/20060810182530/cyprus-conflict.net/Table+of+Contents.htm, can I suggest you study it. No doubt you will find information that supports the the TC cause – how’s that for fairness!
With the events of 1955 – 1958 in mind and being saddled with an unfair (did you know that Cyprus was the ONLY British colony not granted majority rule)constitution its hardly surprising that there were many disgruntled GCs. The TCs were not just idle bystanders after 1960, they had their own agenda. The 1960 constitution was a poisoned chalice, it was bound to overflow. It’s hardly surprising that in the TCs got the worst of it in 1963/64 – being a minority and outnumbered 4 to 1.
You also need to appreciate that the Greek/Turkish problem on the island was much more widespread in the Med. There has been a long history of conflict between both sides in the region, take a look at what happened in Istanbul in 1955 in the link I gave you.
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Yiannis, there you go again…number 15 now?
Jer, while you GCs collectively maintain your stubborn insistence that “both sides were equally responsible for the Cyprus problem”, there will never be a settlement. It is now quite clear to all outside and objective people in many countries that the GCs, strongly backed and supported by Greece and the GOC, were responsible for the conflict. You can obfuscate, spin and argue until doomsday about piecemeal points concerning this massacre or that outrage, but in spite of the generation-long propaganda campaign by Greece and the GCs, the truth is coming out.
It isn’t an “indisputable fact that the first intercommunal violence leading up to independence was started by TCs” except to GCs.
But you’re correct that “The TCs were not just idle bystanders after 1960, they had their own agenda”.
It was called survival.
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Sorry Ian, I can se no point in responding to someone who makes claims but fails to support them with sources and evidence, you really have been taken in by your friends in the north haven’t you. In the same way as they managed to con you out of your cash by “selling” you dodgy goods.
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Ian mes 127.
Cut the crap mate , which are these countries that you so confidently say are now clear as who the conflict responsibilities are attributed to ?
Any countries that you can perhaps elaborate on ?
The truth of the matter is that you and the likes of other cheapskates are running around like a headless chickens clutching at straws.
Let me tell you again Mr Plonker that SIX YEARS BEFORE THE TURKISH INVASION THERE WAS NO CONFLICT IN MOTION AND NO FATALITIES !
Check it Brinsley !
The rest of the cheapskates who were posting obscene nonsense on the micky mouse CY44 forum are now busy trying to off load their stolen loot !!
Good luck Mr Plonker !
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Hi Jerr and Yiannis,
Exactly what is it that “all makes sense now”?
I do hope you are not going to accuse me, a proud born and bred Aussie, of being a KIWI??!!
Now that really would get up my plonker…
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And, guys, how on earth do you get “Brinsley” out of “Ian Edwards”?
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mmmmmm? That’s narrowed it down a bit.
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And theres more….for those of you who had read about my abortive trip to the High Court on MONDAY I have just been advised by my
Advocate that the Court awarded costs against me in a hearing that
didnt take place AND I owe AKFINANS BANK LTD,s Advocate £1000.00
good innit. So not content with 13 houses the Bank want me to pay their Advocate too. ‘You couldn’t make it up’ could you
name of the book I am writing too PLUG PLUG.
Picked up some wonderful material on this board incidentally.
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It was a question, not a statement of fact. I used many names on CY44, I was banned three times for telling the truth.
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Malcolm – why was I censored?
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whats going on here? A couple of rats trying to convince the world that the property the turkish army stole from me is rightfully theirs?
You panicking yet lads?
You ready to leave the sinking ship?
We’re coming for you and we got a big smile on our face
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What age are you yiannis?
and what history are you reading?
and dont look far ,look now to 2010
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YS,
Still waiting to hear from you about how many more mates you have than Mustafa (fact not opinion) and how many sovereign entities there are in Cyprus. Remember the SBAs?
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I haven’t censored anyone for months so just write it again?
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Mate , you ought to be ashamed of your self living in stolen property !
In the words of a great Englishman , my late father in law PO !
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YS, it’s called trespass according to the Orams judges. Vaughan is trespassing, all the GCs on TC land in the south are trespassing because the GC laws which allowed them to do just that no longer count. It’s the EU laws that apply since 2004 and so all those GCs are trespassing. Nothing has been stolen as it is still there, you can’t steal land you can only trespass. Well you could steal the top soil I suppose… GC trespassers should not be prosecuted and nor should any other EU citizen because to do otherwise would be discriminatory. That’s the good old EU legal system for you.
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you know the british have a cheek courts dictating to people what they can and can’t do in other countries, where were they in 1974, having been to cyprus prior to 1974 ie in limasol and famagusta on ships, it wasn’t the turks who were unliked, but the british, and they were quite happy with turkey occupying some of the island, because if the greek military had got their way, ie to make cyprus part of greece, without a doubt the british would have been booted out, after the way they had treated the greek cypriots, who wants the eu anyway, or being dictated by a bunch of foreigners in another country telling me how i should live my life, so butt out britain
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The worse thing is, it wasn’t even up to the British courts, they were told what to do by the EU. It’s embarrassing being British.
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I on the other-hand would had felt proud of being British after this.
British court having the moral uprightness to serve Universal JUSTICE instead of Minor british interests of people who gambled and lost.
If there is anyone you should be putting the blame on here is TURKEY that used innocent citizens as pawns to serve political games.
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Universal??? Looks like one rule for the Brit trespasser and another for the GC trespasser. Justice??? Mind you the Greek President of the ECJ who started it all was brilliant at twisting justice for the GC cause, he should get a medal for that… oh he did didn’t he, from the President of the GC government. He presided over the court when a decision was made that only Greece could use the word feta for cheese. What a joke.
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Only just seen your post Pte Pike – You cannot educate pork
and possession is 9/10th of the law are very common expressions
but hey, if you want to think I am now posing as three people
go ahead. I was a girlie when I woke up this morning – but
if I am not I sure did a good job fooling Yawnnis.
Thought for the day:
I wonder who polly really is – Lord Lucan maybe???????
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