Greek Cypriots now trying to wreck TRNC tourist industry
Not content with trying to wreck the TRNC property market the Greek Cypriot lawyer Constantis Candounas has made it clear that he now intends to target tourists using hotels in the TRNC. Both attempts could have the opposite affect, however. Property sales could rise dramatically if GC predictions are true that 90% of EU citizens would now sell their properties. These sales would boost property taxes and advocate and estate agent incomes.
There would be a boost of passengers travelling via Turkey rather than risk being stopped by GC officials at crossings quizzing them about where they are going to stay in the TRNC. This would bring a much needed boost to CTA, the TRNC government controlled airline.
These attempts to attack the TRNC economy are meant to force them to make concessions in the Cyprus Talks but instead are hardening attitudes so that should a referendum ever occur then there will be a massive NO from the TRNC voters. These economic attacks also make it more likely that the TRNC and Turkey will become more closely linked and for TRNC to become steadily Turkified. There is even a possibility that over the next few months someone will attempt to evict trespassers from Turkish Cypriot property in the south with the possibility of civil unrest that such a thing could ever happen in an EU country. Yet the EU has made it abundantly clear that Cypriot property should not be occupied and that to do so is a criminal offence. Perhaps someone may even point out that the south Cyprus government is aiding and abetting these crimes in the south and at some point may be seen as being in contempt of court if a case determines that it is discriminatory for an EU government to allow one set of EU citizens to do what others have been found guilty of. Opening a can of worms is a very apt description of the UK Appeal Court’s judgement.
Pauline Read on
I for one, will stop using Larnaca as an airport, not that I ever used it often, but it was a useful back up option should I not find a flight on CTA or Pegasus.
From now on, I will fly via Turkey to Ercan airport in North Cyprus.
So I don’t get stitched up by Greek Taxi drivers. yipppppppeeeeeeeeeee
Greeks are trying to drive a wedge between Turkish Cypriots and Turkey.
This has been an on going Greek policy as long as I remember, they will not succeed, in fact, this will increase the hate towards Greek Cypriots, more than ever before.
So our Emir admits that he hates the G/Cs !!
You are in good company mate , the British cheapskates hate us even more !!
another GC skater, skating around the issue of trespassing GCs on TC land
You really think that GC want to wreck your tourist industry or your property market industry;
You sincerely believe that our motives are so despicable immoral?
We just want our properties back. Thats all.
Can’t you see that all in all a bunch of family-elites consisting the so called TC politicians are taking advantage of this situation.? Those crooks are using ”trnc” as a showcase for their dirty works.. Those are the people who are selling houses to ORAMS and building Casinos. I honestly believe that Tc people are just innocent propaganda victims of this sick sick situation.
Can’t you see all they do is spoon-feeding you with lies? This bad ”trnc” joke its just not going anywhere!
Can’t you see that a united FREE country without their lobbies but with meritocracy and high salaries is for your own interest as well?
Can’t you see that they are just wasting your opportunities here?
.. even if lets say.. TrNc is recognized worldwide. Even if we agree for 2 separate states! /… our legal deeds will always be valid.. our land will still be ours LEGALY forever and ever And your land in the south as well.
The only deference is that Turkey can control the north part and those crooks will be always sucking your blood like giant ticks
The more this injustice goes one the more innocent people like Orams will get hurt.
The only winners will be Turkish interests
And the TC politicians who exploit GC land.
People like Denktash Talat and Eroglu..
Dominique , T/C land and properties in the FREE AND ONLY INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED ENTITY IN CYPRUS IS STILL THE PRPERTY OF THE ORIGINAL OWNER.
If you think that more than 160 thousand G/C refugees would be living in tents then you are more incabable of rational thinking than I thought you were.
Let me make it simple for you . NO T/C LAND HAS BEEN SOLD TO FOREIGNERS OR TO LOCALS.
The properties of each and every T/C in the free parts of Cyprus are protected by the legitimate government of Cyprus.
Your ” property ” in the north , presuming you have some is more than likely property that the legal owners will sooner rather than later demand back .
The game for cheapskates buying stolen land is OVER !!
so yiannis, shall I make my question easier for you? I don’t want to get you in trouble with your GC associates but surely these GCs are trespassing on TC land? Don’t answer if the truth is too hard to bear. I am permanently staying in the home of a TC friend in the north. He tells me it’s his and I don’t think it would be polite to ask him about his legal entitlement to it.
My dear chap , you are totally clueless !!
May I suggest that you do a little research into the political ramifications following the Turkish invasion of Cyprus with the pretext of putting an end to the ….on going genocide of the T/Cs.
I sometimes wonder whether your type , you know the type that wants something from the back of a lorry , know anything at all about Cyprus and the Cypriot people.
GREEK CYPRIOTS ARE NOT TRESPASSING ON ANYONES LAND !
Don’t be a plonker mate , wake up from that lythargic zombie state of mind that you somehow got your self into !
You are living in a part of the world that the INTERNATIONAL community considers to be under the occupation of Turkey , is your brain capable of comprehending this very basic factor , if not stay out of politics take up knitting instead !
Dominique: Your economic analysis is a bit shallow if I may say. Yes, there will be a ‘dutch auction’ of TRNC properties and in the short run that ‘may’ produce a small ‘fillip’ to the TRNC economy in terms of current tax revenues but the trendline will be unfortunately heading south. Lack of investment, tourists and fire sale of assests is not a firm foundation on which to build an economy let alone a country!
The sad fact of this case is that the TRNC government have had 6 plus years to prepare for the inevitable and what have they done – Zilch, nada, nothing!
There is some merit in the point raised by the GC about the corruption which is endemic in the TRNC, however, the GC should take note such corruption is pervasive in the ROC too. Perhaps it is cultural to the island! People who live in glass houses should refrain from throwing stones!
As for the GC argument that TC property is ‘protected’ and ‘unused’ it is to say the least somewhat economical with the truth. The GC government has utilised the TC land, Larnaca airport is a case in point – however, as is thier guise, they have done this under the title of ‘public utility’ (a bit like compulsory purchase) but nonetheless they have NOT followed the basic tenets of such action including, but not limited to notifying the owners.
There is clearly wrong on all sides – and certainly two wrongs will not make a right – not even in the ECJ or the ECHR! This is a politicl problem and will have eventually a political solution. As an aside, many GC seem to refer to the ‘register’ of properties kept by the British as a basis for their claims – many who were around then would know that many TC did not ‘declare’ their ownership because of British taxes and of course corruption was alive and kicking in that era too! The issue of ‘true ownership’ may be as clear as the mud from recent rains in Cyprus and arguably drawing the line in 1974 is a bit selective to say the least!
The main rationale for the GC going after ‘foreigners’ was simple. It was not so Mr. A could get his property back in Lapta – I would summise that his living there may jeopardise his well being and longevity, it was to find another way to ‘cripple’ the TRNC economy. In this respect how far they have succeeded remains to be seen, but it is probable that it will have a significant negative impact. They have also alluded to legal action agianst tourist staying at hotels such as the Dome (allegedly GC owned prior to 1974). This is nothing more than ‘fear’ mongering to drive the tourism industry in to the ground. The GC have tried to prove the ‘legal pen is mightier than the sword’(but as discussed later ‘possession is still 9/10ths of the law’
!
They will also impact directly on the current talks an no doubt if there was an agreement the likelihood of the TCs accepting a unified state in a referendum, whether bi-cameral or federal remains at best unlikely.
Why some may ask have the GC not gone after TC owners of GC land in the TRNC? Well, for two reasons. Firstly, under the 1960-63 constitution the TC would be entitled to ask for a TC judge to adjudicate the issue. The GC have suspended that part of the constitution on the basis of ‘Law of Necessity’ and secondly, because the same could be said for TC claimimng against the ROC for their land in the south.
The question is what if anything the TRNC / Turkey will now do about the current situation?
In some senses, despite the overt and somewhat over the top celebrations by the GC, as the land is still north of the Greenline and “possession is 9/10ths of the law” and as such the claimants are simply just that claimants. Yes, they can enforce the compensation part of the judgement agains an EU subject with assets in another EU country, but it is not as easy as they imagine ask Mr A, it took him several years and a lot of time, money and effort. Further, having enforced the judgement – will the claimant still have access to the land / property? Obviously not!
The TRNC / Turkey can choose to do nothing. Then we are still no further forward as far as a solution to the Cyprus problem is concerned. The TC will have de facto control of the north and the GC and TC will each have land on either side of the divide!
They could choose to pursue a settlement – unlikely as there will be elections in the TRNC in April and this case has all but scuppered any real chance of success.
They could simply throw open the TRNC to all investors – remove the PTP requirements, issue TRNC / Turkish backed title deeds with sovereign gurantees to any investors if sued by GC. Of course this will jeaopardise Turkish accession to the the EU, but in the current climate the prospect of Turkish memebership of the EU is even less likely than the Orams case providing a conducive environment for the settlement of the Cyprus problem! Having said that, it is still an unlikely prospect for two simple reasons. Firtly, the issue of CONFIDENCE. Investors do not like uncertainty and the only certainty of investing in the TRNC is that it will be UNCERTAIN! Secondly, the TRNC government lacks the capacity to gender and manage such a process.
The options are limited. Most likely option to be adopted is ‘to do nothing’ as Turkey has bigger issues to grapple with at least in the near term!
Where does all this leave us after the Orams case?
1. The property market will take a dive and overshoot on the negative side.
2. In time the market will find a new equilibrium and purchasers will return at ‘the right price’ factoring in the risk and uncertainty. Yes, there are many ways around the “problem” to reduce the risk – that’s why the GC celebrations may be somewhat premature!
3. The GC will increase the legal challenges but as often said, when “Man” invents a better mouse trap nature invents a better mouse. The TC will find ways and means to live with the situation and a GC claimant will be no closer to his alleged property and of course vice versa.
Eventually there will be a political solution. The EU will have to play it part – unlike its duplicious attitude in 2004. So will Turkey, Greece and the UK – with some encouragement from the USA who have more pressing reasons for a solution than anyone could imagine!
The road ahead will not be easy for TC, but then the last 35 years have not been easy for all Cypriots. The Orams case will be a footnote in the history of the island, but as for legal ruling in the ECJ – it will have ramifications for all EU member states long after the Cyprus problem is put to bed!
Greek Cyprus opposition MP Yorgos Georgiu said, account which was suppose to have 1.5 Billion Euro’s for compensation to Turkish land and properties in South Cyprus, is totally empty.
Director of the Government Accountability Office Manager Hristalla Yorgacis, called in to investigate.
I wonder if they loan it to Greece
Yiannis, I believe you are right to say that an EU citizen living on a refugee’s land is not trespassing. Your reasoning behind it I believe is because of the political ramifications as you call them. I only wish the Appeal Judge had seen it that way.
I think you on the Greek side have forgotten why this mess started if the Turkish army did not come in I would be dead now I will never forget tracer bullets at night targeting women and children and how I lived under Greek Cypriot rule prior to 1974 helped by Greece I will never be governed by the Greek mainland or Greek Cypriots. I think Turkish Cypriots should close the borders and look to other countries outside the euro zone for trade and what are you talking about half of Larnaca airport is on Turkish Cypriot land.
That was an excellent analysis of the situation Moover. Thank you for your intelligent contribution to the debate, it was a breath of fresh air.
“We have been shouting and protesting for 30 years because the Turkish Cypriots have been building on our property. But the legitimate government (of the Greek Republic of Cyprus) gave us money to build houses on the properties of the Turkish Cypriots. And at the time they lied to us, telling us that they had given us state land. This was what was written on the documents we signed.”
These words were uttered by a frustrated citizen in a television news story about a noisy protest held in Polemidia (South Cyprus) by hundreds of displaced persons who had built houses on plots given to them by the Spyros Kyprianou government in South Cyprus some 30 years ago.
In the same report, a woman, who was visibly angry, said: “We were fooled. They brought us here, gave us land belonging to the Turkish Cypriots and, through a life of hard toil, we built our houses on it, married, brought up our children and now they are telling us to leave and that they will give us a plot somewhere else. In other words, we have to start from the beginning again. We will never leave. We will stay here and if they dare, they can come and kick us out.”
(March 2006)
Polemidia: An unmixed Turkish Cypriot village in the Limassol district before 74
The appeal Lord Justices on Tuesday the 19th January upheld the EC judgement of April 2009 .
There are no trespassers on land that legally belongs to the original owners whose title rights are guaranteed by the RoC a European nation.
The trespassers are the Brits who knowing full well the political situation in Cyprus elected to succumb to their greed and buy stolen property.There is no excuse Sir , you have been judged by the British judiciary and found guilty of embezzlement .
Daz , the Dazzler !!
Half of Larnaca airport is ….T/C owned !! If you say so son !
What a Plonker !
I can not believe the hypocrisy of the argument that the RoC somewhat equally denies the right of the TC to their property. If it was agreed that both GC & TC should get the property that they had prior to the 1974 invasion, the Cyprus problem would be solved the next day.
The question is why this does not happen? The RoC would love this to happen. The reason is that the TC authorities do not want that after they obtained by force almost 40% of the island and prior to the invasion they only legally owned roughly 15% of the land. Therefore after refusing an agreement like this that would be in accordance with humanitarian and international law some TC and British employ the same laws to argue that the RoC refuses the rights of property to the TC. They seem to argue that after taking illegally 40% of the land they should be given also their legally owned land in South Cyprus prior to 74 without relinquishing their illegal property.They argue for the rights of TC while at the same time denying that these rights should apply equally to the TC and GC.
This is especially true of the British who the last thing they want is international law and human rights to be applied to all properties in Cyprus as in that case they would lose everything.
I can not believe that this somewhat passes for some as an argument in this and other forums that i have read.
As for the economic argument of the above article it defies any economic logic.
@Moover its unacceptable, to compare the corruption in the Republic of Cyprus with the corruption on trnc. And I think the Transparency international agrees with me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
Cyprus currently ranks 27 and the main reason we are not in the top ten list is because of the fact that we are forced to preserve an Army due to the situation in the island.
And considering the other fact that back in 1974 a brutal attacker claiming pitiful excuses that of course were accepted by nobody, displaced nearly half of the population of the country (200 refugees), but yet the hardworking people of cyprus manage regain their feet and reached to a point where is able to enjoy high standards of living again. Standards to be envied by many. Moreover, has acquired a very high education level. I would like to remind that according to eurostat GC are now considered as one of the most educated people in Europe. Cyprus economy is also one of the best in Europe. As you all know the only reason we even joined Europe is to help resolve the Cyprus problem’ to ”compel” the TC to accept our basic human rights to be restored. Human rights that are based upon the inalienable dignity of human beings. But i guess this is just too much to ask for some people. We are trying for 35 fucking years to convince TC that is better to live in a country without ethnic discriminations and other forms of restrictions. And moreover unfortunately Tc keep forgetting historic facts and easily accept Turkish propaganda (for barbaric greekcypriots) and some of them even reached to a point actually believing that Turkish army is there to protect them and not to promote the interest of Turkey and Denhtash ONLY. .
TC put to the same basket the entire Greek Cypriots with the few dozen hard-core nationalists that came from Greece and tried to annex Cyprus to Greece after its independence.
They believe that all GC are bloodthirsty killers and keep forgetting that statistically these EOKA jokers killed more GC than TC. They killed GreekCypriots that were trying to defend our common homeland. And fought side by side with Turkish Cypriots. They forget that Ntenhtash and TNT killed innocent GC AND TC as well. They forged that they were practically forced to abandon our common state not just from Greek nationalist but from Ntenhtash as well. They forget that the flag of Cyprus was designed by a TC.
As regards the alleged use of TC land by GC. I am sincerely offended that you so easily equate Republic of Cyprus with an illegal regime without any sort of human values or ideals- that its existence of only violates virtually all human rights out there. A regime that the only reason it even exist is the Turkish army.
I am deeply sorry that you are even daring a comparison here.
Just to set the facts straight again.
Cyprus Government NEVER sold or given away TC land. Cyprus respects ALL human rights and international laws. And if it makes a tiny mistake it will comply with the international law and fix it.
The thing is that as in many other highly developed Countries that they expropriate land for infrastructure (Germany , England) Cyprus government expropriates land as well BUT with no racial discrimination whatsoever. TC land was expropriated with EXACTLY the same criteria as GC land. And only for infrastructure purposes such as hospitals, roads, airports etc. The Cyprus Government has expropriated land of mine as well (twice). As you can imagine a high speed road cannot make racial discriminations. it can only go straight. Do you expect the road to turn every time it meets TC land?
Its unnecessary to say that the money where deposited into a bank account as international law commands. And they will be given to the legal owners as soon as the UNLAWFUL Turkish army gets the hell out of Cyprus. Furthermore i would like to state that International law says clearly that if the owner of the land do not get adequate compensation or if the state does not use the expropriated land in 3 years the land returns back the owner.
So our TC friends you can sleep peacefully knowing that your land will NEVER be sold to any Orams
Unfortunately its just not the same for GC. TC authorities are just using the airport propaganda in order to legitimize themselves when they devour GC land.
Larnaca’s airport place was chosen mainly for strategic reasons. As Nicosia is too Close to the Turkish Army and the turks already conquered and destroyed our brand new Nicosia Airport.
Larnaca seemed to be the only logic choice. Some of the VAST land that the airport is grounded happened to belong to TC. BIG FUCKING DEAL it was expropriated NOT stolen money will be GIVEN and we are talking about an airport not a VILLA.
And are you telling me that ERCAN airport was not builded on GC land?
you don’t hear us bitching about that even though you never expropriated anything and you will never give a refund to anyone without being forced by an international court.
I am ashamed for humanity that such abominable acts can happen on a European soil. But what I am really ashamed of is the fact that some people turn the other way just because they happened to be born on the ”military strong side” If they accept such loathful acts they are nothing more than plain accomplices.
@ cypriot
Again to put things straight.
Cyprus government has not given to any refugee any legal document for TC land
Due to the extreme circumstances cyprus was in 74 the government lent to some refugees temporarily some TC land in order to build a temporarily house. Until the turkish army fall back and refugees can return to their houses in the North part. I should state here that Cypriot government has virtually no private land. The church owns vast tracts of land but refused to give land to all refugees only to few ”true believers”.
The desperate refugee on TV asks the government to give him public land in order to build a new house. But the truth is that the Government has no obligation to give him anything. I too am a refugee and I know. The government may be given some state assistance, But when we talk about 200,000 refugees with a little imagination you can get the picture. I remember i was sleeping under a tree with a rock for a pillow. I consider my self lucky because some did not even had a tree.
Those people needed a place to live, so the government allow them to temporarily build in TC land without giving them Legal deeds. Unfortunately the Turkish Army never left. The refugees still live in their temporarily houses and the irony is that they cannot even put their houses for mortgage.
Thats why they shout on Air. They demand legal Deeds.
Anyways to be accurate… we never sued TC refugees who build a house on GC land, This is understandable those people are victims of the same era as well and needed a place to stay. Thats ok.
But ORAMS and Turkish Settlers were NO refugees and we will never accept those lame turkish politicians to make more money or gain more votes by selling or giving our land to anyone.
There you have it. The Greek Cypriots are trying now to achieve by
stealth that which they failed to do by force, aided by the E.U
and to my eternal shame Britain.
If you were Turkish Cypriot, would you ever feel safe amongst them?
Thank God for Turkey.
Beware Greeks bearing gifts!!!!!!!!!!
expect my last post will be derided and scorned by Yawnis
Unreal and Swearios in there usual longwinded fashion. How
come it takes them so many words to say so little and all of it
repitition.
Polly , I respect your right to have your views regardless how stupid they might be . Have you taken to knitting yet ? Well put it aside and take a look at what the UK foreign office has to say :
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/country-profile/europe/cyprus/
We will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them in the courts, we will never surrender.
Cypriot, excellent information to bring some balance into the situation. It seems to me that there was no problem with refugees, in both the north and south, being given properties which did not belong to them. The GCs, in your example, built houses on them and expected to be able to transfer them when they died. TCs thought the same way and even went a little further, to give their refugees more security, and issued title deeds. I have read in GC newspapers that there is now even a plan to give GCs title deeds in the same way. What a mess! The EU and UK courts are both asses.
GREEK CYPRUS DONT WANT YOU TO READ THIS.
BY WORLD PRESS
“But gentlemen, the problem is settling itself”
From New York Times 16 February 1964
BLOOD STAINED ARCHBISHOP AND HIS BLOOD STAINED DOGS OF WAR
“We shall keep the Cyprus question open and will never close it under any circumstances or conditions until we close it through union with Greece, a genuine ENOSIS without exchanges” Makarios Greek Cypriot press 17/3/1965
“… Greek cruelties in Cyprus: Greeks have started an attack on the areas where the Turks are living. The Turks are trying to escape from the Greek attacks, 25,000 Turks have already been forced to leave their homes ….”
Daily Express 28 December 1963
“I was allowed to move through the whole besieged Turkish sector. I was taken to Kumsal district. into a green and white house …. The bathroom of this house was a blood-soaked shambles with women and three small boys lying dead huddled together in the bath, and in an adjoining room an other dead woman”. (Photo of the children in the bath on the first page)
Daily Mail 29 December 1963
“…. Archbishop Makarios, robed and bearded cleric who serves as President of Cyprus, has Byzantine talent for equitation…. His government deliberately provoked the clashes and is bent upon the extermination of Turkish population…
Robert H. Estabrooh Washington Post
16 – 2 – 1964
“The Imam of Omorphita and his paralyzed blind son were found today murdered in their beds in Nicosia. Turks returning to Omorphita suburb under British escort found the 75 year old priest. Huseyin Igneci riddled with machine – gun bullets.
Bernard Jordan Daily Mail 3 -1 – 1964
“In Cyprus the terror continues Right now we are witnessing the exodus of Turks from villages. Thousands of people are abandoning their homes, lands, herds: Greek terrorism is relentless. This time, the rhetoric of the Hellens and the busts of Plato do not suffice to cover up their barbaric and ferocious behavior. At four o’clock in the afternoon curfew is imposed on the Turkish villages. Threats, shootings and attempts of arson start as soon as it becomes dark. After the massacre during the past Christmas that spared neither women, nor children, it is difficult to put up any resistance” Giorgio Bocco IL GIORNO 14 – 01 – 1964 … The Constitution gives the Turkish community certain social guarantees. It is a pity that these guarantees were not enough to prevent bloodshed. These guarantees were not enough, specially if the President (Makarios) continues to insist in abolishment of the constitutional rights of the Turks, will have to be safeguarded with more efficient means …”
The Times 04 – 01 – 1964
“One of Packard’s first tasks was to try to find out what had happened to the 25 Turkish hospital patients. Secret discussions took place with a Greek Minister in the collapsed government. After a brief investigation, he was able to confirm local rumors. It appeared that Greek medical staff had slit the Turkish patient’s throats as they lay in their beds. Their bodies were loaded on to a truck and driven to a farm north of the city where they were fed into mechanical choppers and ground into the earth”. From the “Secret” report of Commander Packard, who was a high ranking British Officer in Cyprus during 1963-1964?
The Guardian 02 – 04 – 1988
Turkish Cypriots taken prisoner and later shot in the head by Greek and Greek Cypriot gunmen.
“… If Turkish Army has not already landed reinforcements to its Treaty Force in Cyprus, that is simply proof of patience of Turkey. Its right to do so cannot be denied. If international treaties mean anything, Turkey can protect the Turkish Cypriot minority from further massacre.”
Daily Telegraph 15/02/1964
Kyriacos:
It matters little what you or what you allege Transparency International say about comparing the corruption in the TRNC with thah in the ROC.
To the victim of corruption the outcome is the same.
Perhaps you should get of your ‘high horse’ in the belief that GC have the high moral ground when it comes to corruption. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Corruption is not relative for the victims a lesson you ought to at least acknowledge!
Your vitriolic venom only indicates your lack of perspective and selective history.
If you care to read beyond what is written in GC history books (and you claim that GC are amongst the ‘most well educated’ – so it should technically not pose a problem for you) you will see that BOTH sides had responsibilities for what took place in Cyprus.
Further, property history, despite your statements did not begin in 1974! As for GC not touching / selling any TC land – PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE. As the GC are amongst the most well educated people in Europe it should not be a problem for you to provide a detailed list of all TC property and show what has happened to it.
The reality is that despite your wide ranging rant and poor use of expletives – it is as usual more hot air than light – shame all that good education is so wasted!
I doubt if you or anyone in the ROC will be able to provide the evidence for your statement that not a piece of TC land has been sold or used outside of ‘public land utilisation’.
Making statements without facts seems to be an important reason why the two sides are further apart today than they have ever been. Don’t be mistaken to assume the TC want to join with the GC in the EU. Most are totally disillusioned after the referandum in 2004 and would trust a GC as far as they could throw him!
The GC have won the Orams case – now when exactly do you think Mr A will be coming to Lapta to take up residence?
That is the point. Mr A, nor any of the other cases whether won in the ECJ or in the UK will alter the facts on the ground. I cannot see how the GC intend to remove the tens of thousands of TC now living in and around Girne on what is ‘allegedly’ GC property.
For a well educated population you seem to miss the obvious.
This is a POLITICAL problem and will not be resolved in a court of law. The sooner the GC realise this the sooner both parties can get on searching for a solution.
The following article appeared in The Sun of London on 8 August 1974, written by Iain Walker in Nicosia, Cyprus. The writer documents some of the brutal atrocities committed by the Turkish military in its illegal invasion of Cyprus in 1974.
”Sun reporter Iain Walker sends a shock report from Cyprus on the Turkish invaders
BARBARIANS
NICOSIA, SUNDAY
‘My fiance and six men were shot dead. The Turkish soldiers laughed at me and then I was raped.
GREEK CYPRIOT GIRL AGED 20
‘The Turkish soldiers cut off my father’s hands and legs. Then they shot him while I watched.
GREEK CYPRIOT WOMAN AGED 32
‘They shot the men. My friend’s wife said ‘Why should I live without my husband?’ A soldier shot her in the head.
GREEK CYPRIOT FARMER AGED 51
A HORRIFYING story of atrocities by the Turkish invaders of Cyprus emerged today. It was told by weeping Greek Cypriot villagers rescued by United Nations soldiers.
THEY TOLD of barbaric rape at gunpoint … and threats of instant execution if they struggled.
THEY TOLD of watching their loved ones tortured and shot.
The villagers are from Trimithi, Karmi and Ayios Georhios, three farming communities west of the holiday town of Kyrenia, directly in the path of the Turkish Army.
Sheltered
They had been trapped since the fighting began two weeks ago and were only evacuated to Nicosia by the UN on Saturday. And today at a Nicosia orphanage they told me their tales – simply and without any prompting.
A 20-year old girl in a pretty yellow and white dress sat under a painting of Jesus tending his flock as she described how she was raped.
She had been visiting her fiance who worked in a hotel near Kyrenia when the Turks attacked. For the first 24 hours she sheltered with other villagers in a stable until they were discovered by Turkish soldiers. She then watched as her fiance and six other men were shot dead in cold blood – only a few minutes after they had been promised that they would not be harmed.
She said: ”After the shooting, a Turkish soldier grabbed me and pulled me into a ditch. I struggled and tried to escape but he pushed me to the ground.
”He tore at my clothes and they were ripped up to my waist. Then he started undressing himself.
Baby
“Another Turkish soldier who was watching us had a nine-month-old baby in his arms and, trying to save myself, I shouted that the baby was mine.
”But they laughed at me and threw the baby to the ground. I was then raped and I fainted soon after.
”When I came to my senses I saw 15 other soldiers standing round watching. The first soldier was taking off my watch and engagement ring. Others were going to rape me – when one of them objected and told them not to be animals.
”I will never forget him for saving me. He was quite unlike the rest – more like an Englishman with blond hair and blue eyes. He spoke to me in English.
”He helped me to my feet and said, ‘All is OK now.’
”The others tried to stop him, but he pulled out his gun and pushed his way through and gave me back to the other women.
”When I had recovered, after a few hours, I went to where the bushes had been burned by the shelling and rubbed charcoal over my face and hands, so I would be ugly and they would not do that to me again.”
The girl, too ashamed to reveal her name, added: ”I cannot put into words the horror I feel at what happened to me. I think I would have preferred it it they had shot me.”
Mrs Elena Mateidou, aged 28 was awakened by Turkish soldiers at Trimithi.
She said: ”My husband and father were told to take off all their clothes and they walked us down a dry river bed.
”Then the soldiers separated the women and children and ushered us behind some olive trees. I heard a burst of shooting and knew that they had been killed.
”Later they took us back to the village with our hands tied behind our backs. Two soldiers took me into a room in a deserted house where they raped me.
Bodies
“One of them held a gun to my head while it was happening and said if I struggled he would shoot.
”Afterwards, a soldier took off my wedding ring and wore it himself.”
Mrs Mateidou added: ”I saw another woman being pulled into a bathroom where she too was raped.
”Later I went back to the olive groves and found the bodies of my husband and father along with five other men. My father had been stabbed and my husband shot in the belly.”
Later, United Nations soldiers brought the villagers food. ”The Turks took it away and ate it themselves said Mrs Mateidou.
Another woman who had been an intended rape victim was Miss Phrosa Meitani, aged 32.
She said: ”When I saw what was happening, I ran as quickly as I could. I saw the soldiers pointing guns at me, but I was too frightened to care.
”I hid in the olive groves and tried to get back to where I had been separated from my father.
”I watched from the bushes as they cut off his hands and legs below the knee with a double-edged cutting knife.
”At first he screamed, and beat at them with his fists, but then he became quiet and did not utter a word. Then they shot him in the stomach while I watched.
Farmer Christos Savva Drakos, 51, saw his wife and two sons murdered.
”I was watering my orchard when the bombs started to explode,” he said.
Shooting
”With the rest of the village we tried to run away through the groves and river beds but the Turks caught us and we surrendered.
”They searched us but no one had a gun.
”The the shooting started. It was one by one to start with and I heard my 16-year-old boy Georgios saying in a calm voice ‘Daddy, they have shot me.’
”I pulled him down and we fell behind a rock, He died there in my arms. ”An officer had been attracted by the shooting and he ran up to see what was going on.
”He was furious with his men and ordered them to stop.
”My wife and my other boy Nicos, who was only 13, were dead.
”My friend’s wife was terribly badly injured and she told the officer: ‘Why should I live without my husband? Shoot me’.
”The officer shrugged his shoulders and walked off and a soldier shot her in the head.”
Face
If the Turkish authorities deny these allegations I will remember the drawn face of that old man cowering in a corner, his body racked with tears.
This elderly man was no actor, or a man ordered to lie for political propaganda.
He was a poor man who had lost everything he ever possessed or loved in the world.
Hotel manager Vassalious Efthimiou was the only survivor in a party of men seized by the Turks.
He said: ”They separated the men from the women and shot the 12 men.
”Those killed ranged from a 12-year-old boy to an old man in his 90′s.”
His brother-in-law was shot dead while holding Efthimiou’s four year-old daughter, Estella, in his arms.
Bullet
Today, Estella showed where a bullet had hit her thigh.
Efthimiou saved his own life by snatching his other daughter, Charian, aged two, and running.
He said:”I ran until my legs would carry me no longer, and I fell.
”I managed to make my way back later to a village where all the women were trembling with fear and shock.
”I handed my daughter to my wife and said I must save myself.
”I hid in a deep well in my sister’s farm for seven days and nights, sitting on a little bar with my feet in the water.
”When I could not take any more I came up.”
Efthimiou and his 37-year-old wife, Helen, run the Mermaid Hotel at Six Mile Beach, Kyrenia, a popular hotel with British tourists.
PRESIDENT Glafkkos Clerides of Cyprus flew into Athens today and accused Turkish troops of mass murders and rape.
Denial
He also claimed about 20,000 Greeks had been forced out of their homes around Kyrenia.
THE TURKS issued a denial.
A spokesman said: ”The Turkish military authorities deny reports of killings and any other atrocities by Turkish troops in any area under Turkish occupation.”
THE SUN SAYS Shame on them
AS THE POLITICIANS vie to take credit for bringing a ”ceasefire” to Cyprus, reports of appalling atrocities are filtering through from that tragic island. For, while the peace talks went on, Turkish soldiers were killing and terrorising innocent civilians. The behaviour of these troops will shock the world. As they are in Cyprus in the name of Turkey, that nation must immediately take action against the animals that wear its uniform…”
@moover
”The GC have won the Orams case – now when exactly do you think Mr A will be coming to Lapta to take up residence?”
When exactly?
when Turks become civilized or europeans …ergs NEVER!
I am not stupid nor blind.. i may curse a bit.. thats only cause i drink a little bit more also..
Anyways…
You are thinking in third-world conditions my friend. You actually believe that all countries work the same way like the ”trnc”.
of course I cannot get any paper to prove the earth is not flat here.
so let us assume that the Cypru has sold tc land to someone.
Orams trial sets a precedent
no state authority whatsoever has the legal capacity to sell your land without your permission. Therefore even if the ROC did sold. On international law such an act is not Valid.
i ll tell you for the last time that GC argues on the negotiation table that all citizens shall have the right to get their properties back but Tc side argues that the legal owner shall not have that (human) right.
So according to this REALITY witch side has its nest dirty?
We must be a colossal stupid to sue and put on the table such arguments if we did what you are corrupted authorities argue we do.
(Sell or Give TC land to anyone)
Ok and just to inform you that i do know your side of the story and i do acknowledge the fact that SOME gc did tried to do some sort of an ethnic cleansing back in 63. But they failed instantly and those people 2% of the GC population? 200 men? They where panned by the vast majority of GC that did not want ENOSIS any more. Actually the majority of Cypriots blame Greece for what happened to Cyprus.
And just because some Gc did killed TC (and vice versa) it does not legalize the land extortion of 200.000 innocent GC.
So with the same logic lets take the land of innocent germans as well. After all some of them where NAZIS.
The thing is that the vast majority of GC fought against those people too and at the end more GC ended up dead by GC hand than Tc.
And that is a historic truth also. a truth that no Turkish will ever tell you because it spoils their fairytale.
The truth is that
Cypriots where both victims of Greece Turkey and England politics.
Troodo wrote: “We will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them in the courts, we will never surrender.”
Tuesday’s judgement brings me extra satisfaction when I remember the anti-Cypriot, anti-democratic, criminal-supporting ranting you and your ilk made on the TRNC BBs. Your fanatisism seems pretty hollow now, doesn’t it?
PtePike, I knew you were nuts.
Troodo
”The GC have won the Orams case – now when exactly do you think Mr A will be coming to Lapta to take up residence?”
Do we have the tar and feathers ready?
No I suppose not, here in the TRNC we aren’t like that – pity.
Troodo.
Wouldnt it be a dream to take one of these cheapskates to visit the refugees now living on TC land used to build refugee complexes? Ask them if they would like to exchange their delapited 60 sq meter house, housing a family of 6, for the property that was take from them in Lapithos where they lived for 100′s of years.
Have you no shame? You are uninvited guests here and you leaving is a matter of time now. There is a writ being printed for every one of you and we will have it delivered in Lapta, Sussex, Burma, Ancorage Alaska or wherever else you might find yourself outside the banana republic you call trnc.
And while most of you, I am sure are perfectly nice people, you have managed to get on the wrong side of justice and praying that 200K people never get to go home again! And for what? a few thousand pounds, You sold your humanity for a place in the sun….
Enjoy it while it lasts. And please dont visit us, we dont want you in our airports, roads and restaurants.
And when you go, please take all your belongings with you. We dont need to even rememeber you were here.
Kyriacos:
Seems like when you cannot address the questions you simply blast more hot air, use ridiculous metaphors and simply show how little GCs, if you are a representative sample of the same, actually understand the reality on the ground.
I will make it as easy as possible for you, perhaps that highly educated brain has stifled your ability to deal with the obvious and simple questions I have posed. So here goes:
1. Mr A has won his case against the Orams – when is he coming to take up residence in Lapta?
My view: The reality is NOT in this life time unless there is a POLITICAL settlement, and then to, it is highly improbable!
2. You state that the GC have never used or sold TC in the south. Okay, PROVIDE DETAIL EVIDENCE OF THIS SO CALLED ‘FACT’ (Independently verifiable). Just simply making a braod statement is not fact! If what you say is true – that the GC are highly educated and have never touched TC land – PROVE IT!
My view: You have no evidence apart from statements made by your government and during the 2004 Annan negotiations the GCs admitted TC land had been sold and utilised by private individuals in the ROC!
3. Who sponsored the case of Mr A?
My view: It was the property industry who have lost huge sums of money in a falling market and through their scams and were losing more potential clients to the cheaper north. It was also assisted by the ROC government. Equally, before you accuse me of bias, the Orams have been overtly supported by both the property industry in the TRNC and the TRNC government. Both attitude smacks of vested political interests and nothing to do with the issue of Mr A’s desire to come and live in Lapta!
4. How many more cases will GCs be pursuing in the hope of casusing more economic pain for the TRNC and how successful do you think they will be?
My view: They will carry on pushing step by step because the purpose is not to get the land or property back but to get the TC and Turkey to capitulate at the negotiating table- it is POLITICAL. The top prize for GCs would be a Cyprus free of TCs – and the idea is to create a situation where the economic necessity means many leave for either Turkey or other parts of the EU. The reality is that this will never happen. The GC failed in the 1960′s and 1970′s and they will fail again now!
5. Do you think that the entry of the ROC to the EU was a fair and transparent process? Do you really believe the TCs will want to join you in the EU and be governed by GCs?
My view: It was duplicious of the EU to allow the GC to join when they rejected the Annan plan. The EU had no plan B and that was because the Greeks et al wanted to ensure that they would sneak in and utilise the EU as a platform for undermining the TCs. It is largely a ‘Christian’ club and there was no sleep lost by either the Greeks, the GCs or any of the other supporters of GCs in the EU for not keeping their word to the TCs people. The EU eventually ‘paid off’ the TC by giving 259 Million Euros for EU projects! In the current circumstances the TCs are likely to reject any kind of a deal with the GC south – simply because once bitten twice shy – 2004 will not be forgotten in terms of the betrayal by both the EU and the ROC government attitude!
Now there are five simple questions – I have even given you the benefit of my view – so let’s hear your answers as opposed to more hot air rants!
Good luck
If I had my way the green line would be closed permanently and all illegal Turks including Turks born in the occupied part of Cyprus would be exiled to the occupied part of Cyprus never to set foot in the Southern part of Cyprus or for that matter Europe ever again. Unfortunately the EU including Britain and the USA together with the United Nations have had 35 years to force Turkey out of Northern Cyprus which as you know Ankara is illegally occupying. I am sick and tired of Ankara’s demands and threats. Ankara is carrying on like a spoilt schoolboy. Europe will be better off without Turkey as a member. In my many years in public life I have never seen such a disgraceful conduct where a party who professes a great desire for membership demands the right to tell the existing members as to the way the rules will be applied. Turkey moved against Israel and then collaborated with Iran, that in itself is evidence that Turkey cannot be trusted. I would suggest that Turkey can go and join other Muslim countries to form their own European Union organisation. History shows that it will only last for 5 minutes. Remember it has been tried before. Remember the Armenian and other Christian genocide of 1915 and then the atrocities committed against the Greek population of 1923 and 1956. Europe is far better off without Turkey.
It’s becoming a little clearer now, Mike…you’re obviously a Turkeyphobe.
Are you game enough, I wonder, to come clean and declare your honest position?
Ian , you have packed yet mate , time is fast running out mate .
I hear Turkey is much cheaper than northern Cyprus , it also has direct flights every where , would suit you down to the ground mate , so hop it !
Yiannis, I can fully understand Polly not wanting to have anything to do with you, but I’ll be happy to have a drink with you in Kyrenia (we call it Girne) next month…
Ian Edwards, regardless of whether or not I am suffering from Turkey phobia. The various genocides past and present tell it all. Why should anybody resident in the North gain benefits from the South at the expense of the residents of the South? I think that it is rather greedy but then again what can one expect from Turks.
If the Turks do not want to play according to the established rules well it goes without saying there is no place for them. The Turks seem to think that they have a right to make the rules of the game and everybody else has to bend over and play according to the Turk’s rules. Well in the real world that is not going to happen.
Many of the problems can be attributed to Britain and America for encouraging Turkey to invade Cyprus in 1974. Remember to atone for their sins Britain and America has done nothing since 1974 to rid Turkey from Cyprus.
In fact from what I see Britain has done nothing but support Turkey in her continued illegal occupation. The so called treaty of guarantee ceases to exist because Britain cancelled it in 1974 by encouraging Turkey to invade and by Britain in the last 35 years give approval to Turkey occupations of Northern Cyprus. It is time for Cyprus to rid itself of everything British starting with the two military bases. Cyprus should follow Malta’s lead, the British tried every dirty trick in the book in the hope of keeping facilities in Malta.
The so called regime that calls itself the TRNC is just a front for Turkey and like Hitler puppets in Vichy France and Quisling’s Norway, one day those responsible will pay the price for their treachery. In the meantime the innocent Turkish Cypriots must also suffer for not having the courage to stand up to the traitors.
Ian, I guess anybody who dares to stand up to Ankara, in your mind, is suffering from Turkey phobia. Well there must be a lot of sufferers in Germany, Austria, Greece, Amenia, Israel, Turkey (Kurds and Christians), the lawful Republic of Cyprus and many other people through out the world. I am sure that they all can’t be wrong.
In conclusion it is rather apparent that you are in love with Turks, well if that is the case, so be it.
Mike, thank you for so openly and honestly declaring your own particular bias…Anglophobe as well as Turkeyphobe!
You reveal the usual extremist’s lack of credibility when you claim ridiculous things like “The so called treaty of guarantee ceases to exist because Britain cancelled it in 1974″!
Nonsense, Mike, just extremist ranting. Come on, tell us all why you hate Turkey so much…
I seem to remember an apt poem that describes the GC attitude to the Turkish Cypriots, It starts – Come into my parlour said the spider to the fly.
Do you ill-informed supporters of the GC’s not realise that given their way there will not be a single TC left in Cyprus within ten years. And you talk about justice and human rights. This is not about Brits buying land this is about the removal of an entire race of people. Wake up for God’s sake before it’s too late.
Troodo.
Troodo, you truly are an ignorant man, a victim of “trnc” propaganda. You only select events in history to back up your poorly researched view. May I suggest you look at the wider picture of Greek/Turkish conflict in the region? The sad events in Cyprus in the middle of the last century are a result of conflict between the two races for centuries – you cannot view them in isolation. May I further suggest you research what happened in 1955 when thousands of Greeks were thrown out of Istanbul. Take a look at the islands of Imvros and Tenedos in1923 and see what Turkey did to its Greek inhabitants. http://www.ellopos.com/blog/?p=98
There are two sides to every story.
Scratch your eyes out if you do Ian
Yawnn is Just a joke !!!
Malcolm , havent been able to access internet all morning
and when I do look what you’ve done – you know how to confuse us girlys
Ian , what gave you the idea that Polly doesn’t want anything to do with me !!
What I have learnt in the University of life is that financial inducements are more than enough to obtain in life what you set out to do , I will buy her a brand new knitting set , so there mate , anyone’s for a knitting set !!
As for your very generous offer to meet me in KYRENIA , Im more than happy to accept on the understanding that I detest all that you stand for you cheapskate !! Name the place Plonker !
You are just being a spoiled sport Polly , being on the side of the cheapskates is understandable. Do you sleep at nights , is your property safe I wonder !!
Whats the progress with my scarf dear ?
You may wish to knit your self a rope , it may come handy one day soon !
Polly, comments are beginning to slow down page loading so they are now hidden until you click on the message at the bottom of each article. I’ve also taken away the rating system as only about 20 of the 2000+ daily readers actually use it. Another change has been to allow comments to be nested so that related discussions are kept together and now you can click on an individual reply button for each comment.
Now Yawnnis great men have been knitters. It is well known
fact that no lesser a person than Winston Churchill was
an avid knitter. Knit one, pearl one, get those Germans, and his best mate Monty also, although it is said that Winnie had the edge. Oops just dropped a stitch. hope you dont mind holes in your scarf – will
be useful to let out the hot air though.
Ian I am trying to tame him.
Dont have a house in my name here – so there. YOU see I can be as childish as you Yawnnis. I’ll refrain from saying
too scathing as I dont think you would understand
Plly , you try and tame me while I try and educate a poor lost soul, fair enough…mate !!
How did the USA and GB resolve land issues with the native American Indian also Australian aboriginies,and New Zealand
Moriories, are the GC’s passionate about this once forgotten land or is it the fact that there is great financial benifits,as when they joined the EU land and property became a very lucrative market.