Bill Cobbett on 
Malcolm Channing on 
yiannis savvides on 
Ian Edwards on 
Troodo on 
G!R on 
polly on 
Dominic Freeman on North Cyprus now a paradise for the investor willing to take a risk?
At first glance, the idea of currently buying property in north Cyprus seems ridiculous. The Orams decision means that a property purchaser with assets in an EU country can now be pursued in those courts for occupying land which is owned by a Greek Cypriot currently prevented by the north Cyprus government from using it. Greek Cypriots often call the buyers of such land “carpet baggers” a term also used for people who opened an Abbey bank account years ago, invested £100, and ended up with a hundred shares worth over £1000. They are also called “cheapskates” because of the low price paid and the fact that the property is owned by a Greek Cypriot according to international law, plus it’s a dodgy deal.
For some people the current situation would be seen as ideal for obtaining a bargain from a panicky EU citizen occupying a property in the north. If they have for sale a small property with a pool on an estate there is a possibility that a speculator would consider taking a risk buying such a property, especially if the chances of them being sued were low and the time it took to do so was several years. Such a property priced around £50,000 and returning an average holiday rental income of £500pw for 20 weeks a year would give a good return on that investment, much better than a “safe as houses” High Street bank. Any whiff of a writ and the buyer could probably quickly shift the property to a new buyer for amount they bought it for. The GC would then be unable to do any more than ask for lost back rent for a few hundred square meters of their field, shared with several other buyers of EU and non-EU nationalities.
All this supposes a north Cyprus government now determined to remove the internal problems preventing such a quick turnover, i.e. PTP and title deeds in months rather than years. In this way the deeds for an unmortgaged property could be transferred into the purchaser’s name at the time of full payment instead of years later; which left a period during which the seller was able to mortgage the property, not make any payments, and go bankrupt.
There is also going to be a few problems for GCs prosecuting people who buy already constructed properties rather than buying land and then building on it. Technically any sales contract in north Cyprus is not recognised internationally and so in the eyes of EU law these people are “squatters” and nothing more. They cannot be asked to demolish a building any more than a squatter in the UK can be asked to do so. The Orams unfortunately were not in this position. How much can a GC sensibly ask a court to award them in a case involving a squatter living on a part of a field if they are not guilty of criminal damage, e.g. building a villa on it? If the “squatter” admits that they are doing just that and does not have to pay the fees of a lawyer then this has to be minimal. Starting a court case for someone who admits guilt would be a waste of the court’s time once a precedence is set that, say, the lost rental would be 10% of the value of the small patch of land for each year the squatter has occupied it.
Another legal sticking point could be a case where the “buyer” never lives in the property and instead rents it out to holidaymakers. If they never built the villa then it will be the temporary tenants who are breaking the law. Perhaps the south Cyprus government will rule that every tourist is a criminal if they land at Larnaca and board transport destined for the north? Time to stop using the airports in the south? Time for those with property in the north to never again set foot in the south until there is a settlement? Time to stand up and be counted as a member of the TRNC community and not another EU country? I believe it is time to show that the Orams case is a fresh start for the TRNC and not the end as doubters would have us believe.
number of views: 1236
BRILLIANT DOMINIC
Any ideas on what to do about the BANKS who currently have
mortgages on property paid for prior to the mortgage.
As you can see the Courts here are not able/prepared to do
anything. I can see how in future this can be avoided but
what about the 1000 plus people already affected.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
1
The banks and the builder are not breaking the current laws by mortgaging property when the title deeds are in the name of the builder. When the builder bankrupts themselves it is sometimes the case that they have moved assets but usually it is just the effect of the recession in the construction industry. In the UK hiding assets to avoid paying creditors is illegal and I should imagine it is here. If something could be done to stop Banks taking the easy option of auctioning the property and instead go for hidden assets that might work. Also as soon as a builder takes out a mortgage at a ridiculously high rates it should be obvious what s/he is doing, there could be a case there for the Banks being a party in an obvious fraud.
When GCs stop ranting perhaps we might start worrying but at the moment all the ideas will have to be tested in the courts, if the buyers live in an EU country. In the case of the non-EU speculator, e.g. Russians, this would be irrelevant. In the end the Brits get to sell their properties and will rent instead, moving every few years if Greeks come bearing writs.
I simply do not understand how an honest human being can feel he/she has the right to occupy/buy/sell something that does not belong to them. The devious method explained in this article to circumvent the law can only have been written by someone with the mindset of a master criminal.
Exchange means that BOTH parties agree, this has not happened.
You need to accept that both sides are equally to blame for the current problem. It’s unfortunate that, seriously outnumbered, the Turkish Cypriots “lost” in 1963, it is equally unfortunate that the Greek Cypriots, seriously outgunned, “lost” in 1974. Turkey took by force and created an illegal “State” which will never be internationally recognised without the the consent of the ROC. Can someone explain to me how selling off Greek Cypriot land and re-populating the north is going to help solve the Cyprus Problem. From the viewpoint of a Greek Cypriot it looks as if Turkey simply wants to punish us in the same way as denying the return of Varosha is seen as a punishment.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry, thank you for the complement. The Orams case changed everything by making it legal to pursue Brits who have become entangled in the Cyprus Problem. Mr A did this, I believe, not for justice but instead to bring down the TRNC. The Cyprus Problem will not be solved and so life goes on but with one difference, 1000s of EU citizens in the TRNC now know where they stand, they are criminals and they are not going to let themselves be stationary targets. The Orams case is now going to turn some of these criminals into master criminals, I believe.
Lord save us, Jerry, YOU need to accept that both sides are NOT equally to blame! This is clearly the whole problem with you guys. “It’s unfortunate that, seriously outnumbered, the Turkish Cypriots “lost” in 1963″! Unfortunate?? You could say that, I guess…”lost”? You could say that, too, but others would more likely use terms such as “genocidally murdered” or “exterminated”.
Jerry, your 36-year-long propaganda campaign is coming to an end.
The outside world is waking up.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Ian thinks the outside world is waking up !!
I agree mate , it woke up in April 2009 and also on Tuesday the 19th 2010 and realized that law and order is still prevailent in Europe. The cheapskates are running scared , you more than most mate !
What do you think the world is discovering now Ian , that Turkey is occupying illegally a part of European territory ?
Get a life mate you are reduntant !
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Regardless of whose to blame, buying land in the north does not make it any less of a gamble. Everyone knows the situation, let alone people who decide to invest on land there. The Orams were greedy, took a ridiculous risk and lost. Like any investment, you look for a bargain, not “supporting the poor tc and gc”.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
1
Bill, you are right and that trespass was the crime is not in doubt. It is the damage to land that makes the difference. GCs on TC land in the south are similarly trespassing.
Ian, you really do need to study the history of Cyprus and learn a few basic facts. Would it surprise you to know that between 1955 and 1958 more GCs were killed in inter-communal conflict than TCs.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I simply do not understand how an honest human being can feel he/she has the right to occupy/buy/sell something that does not belong to them.
When the GC’s stop telling lies and admit they were wrong between 1950 and 74 we might look at it differently, Until then-
Troodo
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Turkey and the TRNC will never join the EU after this. Now is the right time to get out of dying Britain and the clutches of the EU.
Start a new life in Northern Cyprus. Make a stand for a better life in the sun, you know it makes sense.
Troodo.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
2 
0
Jerry, it is also well documented that yes more GC died than Tc’s but according to my reading “I quote most of the Gc’s were murdered by the EOKA crew, because of family ties would no squeal on there friends in the village.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
2 
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
1
Hi
I’m really confused. We have been looking to buy some
property in Northern Cyprus, We were informed to buy
with Turkish Deeds, That was the most secure investment.
Now I’m not sure? Please someone advise me.
Kathy
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Kathy, you are confused and you are also not following the advice that Malcolm gave you. Seek legal advice, don’t ask anonymous people.
Kathy, since the “trnc” is not recognised by any country in the world apart from Turkey I would suggest you seek advice from the legal government of the whole of Cyprus, i.e. The Republic of Cyprus. You should also seek advice from a British solicitor in the UK who knows about purchasing property overseas. NEVER believe what locals tell you in any country, do your own research.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I’m intrigued by all this. I’ve never been to Cyprus but heir to property in NC on the sea. It is yet undeveloped and was owned by my father, a foreign national at the time of the invasion. He passed away 2 months later and left the property to his children. It was owned by my father’s family for generations. We still have original deeds… wonder what we can do with that land. It’s quite a big piece of land and sits next to a hotel currently.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Kathy , with so much publicity surrounding the EC judgement concerning property belonging to Mr Apostolides , a G/C , and dubiously purchased by David and Lynda Orams , with the decision on Tuesday by the Royal Courts of Justice in the Strand to uphold the EC judgement , and bearing in mind that the G/Cs owned more than 84 % of all land in the occupied part of Cyprus , and here you are as naive as a baby wanting to buy property in a part of the world that the entire international community considers to be under the occupation of Turkey. The mind boggles !!!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry, exactly what Malcolm was saying – seek legal advice. Doing your own research would lead you into a landmine so stick to taking the advice of a British solicitor as a solicitor in south Cyprus would not be able to process the documents needed to own GC or even non-GC property in the north. I believe the government in the south stops genuine owners from selling their land in the north as part of a policy to try to economically strangle the TRNC. Isn’t that right Jerry, and BTW aren’t GCs trespassing on TC property in the south, placed there by the government I believe? What do you think? You seem a legally informed man; or would trespass be a word that cannot be spoken in that context?
Dominic …. You are quite right it is tresspass by any definition BUT there is a major additional consideration in that as a consequence of the dislocations of 74, both communities found humanitarian refuge in the other community’s homes pending settlement.
Don’t think we should condemn this arrangement, one that’s still respected by the CYs.
It was however a regretable step-change when the Illegal Regime came up with the Exchange Land Scam and issued Dodgy Kochans for properties, some of which were of course sold on to gullible or otherwise Ex-pats and which has led to the predictable, sorry, events of the last couple of days.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
This one’s for Kathy…
http://ukincyprus.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-cyprus/buying-property
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
This is not for our GC friends as it will give them something
else to gloat about.
Today I was made aware that the Land Registry has issued a sale
notice on mine and the twelve other properties on the site
I give details of in my article ‘Pauline Read’s bank mortgaging case thrown out of court’. It seems to have been posted on the
Koop shop door and the Coffee shop in Karsiyaka square. Interestingly the notice is dated the 11th January and my Appeal
date was the 18th January – I wonder how Akfinans Bank Limited
had the confidence to do that!!!!! Please read the article.
You got your wish GCs in three weeks from the 11th I could be homeless. Course you just might have helped me – who the hell
would want to buy it???
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
We will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them in the courts, we will never surrender.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
2
Yawnis, now I see, your mind boggles so often you have permanent
brain damage.
I am knitting you a scarf – or is it a noose??
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Bill Cobbett, can you please redirect you comments to the GC government who are now considering issuing title deeds to GCs who thought they too owned the TC property they built homes on and brought their children up in. They too believed they had the right to pass the property on to whoever they wished. Perhaps that’s why TCs doing the same will never be prosecuted; the GC government would be seen as hypocrites.
To
Get Real! 24
Thanks will speak to the London Office, and
will take ther advise.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
1
Reh Dominic – Such deed transfers have been under consideration for 35 years. Polliticians have this curious habit of making promises. The reality is that none, not a single one has taken place. Where are you going with your fillibustering next? The myth of LCA built on tissy land? Highways built on tissy land?
Gori Pauline – not sure if you are one of the Aga ladies, if you are, best wishes to get the remedy you seek. (A scam is a scam, mindless which side of the cease-fire line it occurs.)
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
No Bill
I am not a Aga lady. My property was in Karsiyaka.
I do wish the Aga ladies all the best- better than
doing nothing. My Builder was Kulaksiz (earless) Construction
Ltd. You are right – a scam is a scam. thanks
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Apologies Pauline, my best wishes to you AND the Aga Three …and indeed to all who have worries over property in CY.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Thank you Bill, what a sweet, fair minded man you are.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Stelios – Remarks like rats up shite pipes – cheapskates are just the sort of thing I expect from GC’s. Has anyone ever read ‘The Genocide Files’ – perhaps you should all read it – may educate some of you.
When I bought a property in the TRNC I was not looking to steal anyone’s land, After reading the above book, I do not think I have stolen anyone’s land.
I do not feel there is anything wrong with looking for a reasonable property in a part of the world one falls in love with. At the time of buying never did it enter my head that I was doing anything illegal or wrong, and I still don’t. I bought the property on good faith, remortgaged my property in the UK, and now, thanks to the GC’s wanting more and more land (they have 2/3rds as it is) I am looking at not being able to sell my villa and am in a deeply depressed state as to how I shall ever pay my mortgage. I would like any Greek Cypriot living in the UK to tell me that you did not move here for a better life and would never consider buying reasonable property – or if any of you are living on our wonderful benefits system. Please do not tell me that you are all saints and do not take advantage of the UK hospitality just as we have done in the TRNC.
Please do not lump all brits together as rats up white pipes etc. I feel that is extremely ignorant and comes from someone who has a low intelligence
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Janis – You are a brave lady and believe me the rest of
us who bought to live here and not to make a profit agree
with you. You will be lambasted by the GCs, called a
cheapskate and worse. Please dont worry – as with life,
time takes care of everything. All the GC bar room
lawyers shouldnt frighten you, because in the end it
will be the Politician who decide our fate, not the
raving loonies across the border. When you read some of their rabid comments you can understand why the TC’s are
frightened of them. Would you want one living next door?
Maybe in a cage.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Janis, Pauline, if you bought land in any part of Cyprus without taking advice from a British lawyer then you are fools. The laws and standards in foreign counties are not the same as they are in the UK. Did you consult a UK lawyer or the legal Government of Cyprus? Did you honestly not know that there was a dispute between the north and the ROC? How would you feel if you had forced from your home at the point of a gun, how much sympathy would you show for someone occupying land that was denied to you?
Can you explain why I, British born with a Cockney mother, cannot have the use of my property in Cyprus just because I have a Greek surname. If you met me you would see an English person, I don’t speak Greek, I have never voted in Cyprus. You complain about the words used to describe you like cheapskate etc – have you seen how GCs are addressed on CY44?
As to “The Genocide Files”, it was written especially for people like you as part of the con, did you know that paragraphs of the Akritas Plan, to which the book refers, were ommitted in the TC version because they actually said no harm should come to the TCs? Did you know that the first inter-communal massacre took place in 1958 when TCs hacked 8 GCs to death at Geunyeli? I’m sick to death of ignorant people trying to justify their illegal aquisitions by quoting “genocide Files” and saying “the Greek Cypriots started it”. Both sides (with help from Turkey, Greece, Britain and the US) were equally responsible for the Cyprus Problem and interference from outsiders has only compounded the issue.
Turks and Greeks, unfortunately, have been at each others throats for centuries in the region. Do a little research, find out how many Greeks were murdered and ethnically cleansed in Istanbul in 1955.
It was established at Orams trial that 78% of the land in the north is owned by GCs and 21% in the ROC is owned by TCs, how could a fair exchange ever have taken place. The Turkish Cypriots in 1974 comprised 18% of the population and they own a similar proportion of the land. They now occupy 37% of Cyprus, that is to say twice their share. Indeed they have so much spare land they are able to illegaly bring settlers and carpetbaggers to the island, and yet those in the ROC are called “greedy Greeks”
Both sides see the other as having the upper hand. In a sense they are both correct, Turkey has the military and territorial upper hand whilst the ROC has the advantage of international law and the EU, the question is which will prevail?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
My cockney mother took the advice of a UK lawyer when she bought in the UK and then when she went to sell, she found that she didn’t own most of the land, perhaps she should have taken the advice of a Cockney lawyer?
Jerry, to take your idea further lets go and tell all the ex-pats living in Cyprus not to listen to the doctors there but instead go back to the UK and ask one there. If you weren’t a fanatic of the GC team then you would see that even you would assume that if a Cypriot lawyer you have hired has a law degree from a UK university, has practised law and lived in the UK and now in Cyprus, then this has to be the best person for the job.
In 2002, before EU laws took precedence, both governments had issued title deeds which gave ownership rights to Cypriots living in refugees properties. The GC government quickly stopped this promise made by Clerides and the TRNC government also stopped issuing deeds around 2004/5,when CTP came into power, but they didn’t tell anyone why. It is now clear why, they knew that the previous government should not have done this.
Were buyers confused, you bet they were? Are they confused NOW, a little bit less but not much. Hindsight is 20:20 vision.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Hardly a valid argument Malcolm. You should not avoid seeking UK legal advice simply because you know of one case where bad advice was given. Your mother could have taken action against a UK lawyer or gone to the Law Society. The comparison with doctors would be true if it was generaly know that there was a problem with TC doctors, I’m not aware that doctors in the north are any better or worse than in other parts of the world because I have never needed their services.
Whatever your views about the deeds issue, the simple fact is GCs and the ROC have not made a “business” from seling off TC land to third parties in the south. This is not the case in the north.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Let’s put it more simply you go to a professional because that’s where their expertise is and not your own. You go to a Cypriot doctor because that’s what they are an expert in. If you knew at the time that they were giving bad diagnosis then you wouldn’t go. My mother would not go to that lawyer again as she knew he gave bad legal advice. You get the idea – you trust until you have experience that they fail to give the standard of service you would expect. Look around for evidence that doctors in Cyprus are misdiagnosing, you won’t find it so you use them and take your advice. I have evidence that ONE Cypriot doctor misdiagnosed a condition, as you say you can’t make judgements based on that. I have evidence that many doctors have recommended the wrong treatment in the UK in the past… Somehow you believe this research process is easy, you’re probably an academic like me.
The Orams were not found guilty of making a business from selling GC land, those guilty of that have been left alone. They have been found guilty of trespass and criminal damage, I believe. This is discriminatory as GCs (EU citizens) are doing the same in the south. I could go on…
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
2
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
1
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
1
It is absolutely mind-boggling how Jerry distorts history. The Akritas Plan was not a reform of the constitution that the Greek Cypriots consented to. Even Greek Cypriot Lt. General George Karayiannis admitted this, when he stated that “When the Turkish Cypriots objected to the amendment of the constitution Makarios put his plan into effect, and the Greek Cypriot attack began in December 1963.” In other words, the Akritas Plan was the Greek Cypriot plan on how to deceive the world about their true intentions, which was the mass murder of the Turkish Cypriots since they refused to accept changes that would make them third class citizens. As the Akritas Plan states, “we must be ready to proceed immediately through actions, including the immediate declaration of Enosis.” According to a statement that Makarios made to Bunte Illustrierte in 1972, “The union of Cyprus with Greece (Enosis) required the extermination of the Turkish Cypriot community.”
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
2 
0
I think both communities had their share of fault for the 63-68 events, furthermore TC had their revenge on 74
Turkish soldiers even had a list with the names of Greek Cypriot that Killed innocent TC. You got my thumps up for that..
Turkish invasion 5000 deaths 200.000 refugees i guess we are ..even, What are we doing next is the real puzzle, where are we heading with this attitude? There is no save nor prosperous future for either one of us..
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Kyriacos,
When you refrain from using foul and disgusting language, and ease up on the extremism, you actually make good sense! It’s nice to read now that the Brits have gone from “carpetbaggers and cheapskates” to “innocent victims”, and that Yiannis has taken over the role of screaming extremist.
I see Jerry is still extolling the same old nonsense about “both sides equally guilty”, but your latest messages are an obvious cry from the heart and I completely agree with you.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I am beginning to mellow towards you Kyriaccos.
That last post had some merit. Good on you.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
I did Jerry, I cannot speak for Janis-so you see you cannot trust anyone.
Even the British lawyer could not have foreseen the pseudo
landowner mortgaging the land after the Contract was signed and money received from me. A common practice
on both sides of the border I believe.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Yannis The BANK OWN THE PROPERTY
I THOUGHT I HAD PURCHASED – GO AFTER THEM. I WISH YOU SUCCESS – SOMEONE
SHOULD MAKE THEM PAY – IF YOU GET THEM I
FOR ONE WILL CHEER. GO GET EM TIGER.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
There you go again not just being economical with the truth but also ignorant of what a court of law can actually do.
You said:
“It was established at Orams trial that 78% of the land in the north is owned by GCs and 21% in the ROC is owned by TCs, how could a fair exchange everhave taken place”.
Just exactly in which of the Oramses court judgement was this “fact” established and by whom?
Sorry, but a law of court deciding a ‘civil’ case as was alledged by Mr A and his lawyers DOES NOT ESTABLISH POLITICAL FACTS. IT DECIDES ISSUES OF LAW! In this case it was the issue of ‘trespass’ (not even an issue of ownership – as many GC have thought in these and other forum pages)!
I see on these pages you are quick to accuse others of ignorance – perhaps you would do well to educate yourself about the legal process before quoting something which is NOT the court’s responsibility to determine and something which may have been used in argument by one or other side but cannot be ‘ESTABLISHED’ by a court of law!
The ignorance of some people leave me speechless
Enjoy
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Pauline , after the AGA SAGA I would have thought that those considering the purchase of dubious properties in the occupied part of Cyprus would shine away , I know that in your case perhaps you purchased long before the AGA episode . Do you people realise that this part of Cyprus is utterly corrupt , the judiciary along with every other aspect of governance is in the hands of the selected few appointed by the Turkish occupying forces .It takes minimal intelligence to arrive at a sensible decision , ie that a part of the world that your own country as well as every single nation on earth considers to be under the occupation of another country , a part of the world that allowed fugitives from justice to flourish and yet here you are paying the price and wondering why.
I know that the 3 AGA ladies have now realized that there is no judicial system in operation , it only functions to protect the interests of those that prop the system up. They consider you the Brits as fair game and do not value your contribution to the economy only to their own pockets.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
1
Never argue with someone who doesn’t know the difference between an “assertion” and a fact. Read the paragraph Jerry!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
I read it, the Court did not dispute the figures.
The Orams in their submissions to the ECJ in which they asserted (AND THE GENERAL EFFECT OF THE FIGURE IS NOT FOR PRESENT PURPOSES DISPUTED) that GCs claimed title to 78% of the property in the northern area and the TCs claimed title to 21% of the property in the area controlled by the Government.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Keep your head buried in the sand ,Ian. Ignore history, ignore the wider picture. Ignorance is bliss.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
Now proof of your ignorance of the law is complete.
Just took a look at paragraph 22 of the judgement – and though you may not understand legalise – you should understand common sense (but then again maybe I give you too much credit).
This paragraph simply asserts what was accepted by the parties. It has NOTHING to do with the court affirming that this is correct or incorrect. Got it?
Seems like you reading of the judgement is at best suspect and more likely an act of ’spin’ on your part to twist waht a court of law is capable of doing!
If you don’t take my word for it – I suggest you invest a little money in manual of International Law and you may, just may find that as per usual you have been speaking from that part of your anatomy where the sun does not shine!
For the sake of completeness here is the paragraph:
The telling words are: “…and the general effect of the figures is NOT FOR THE PRESENT PURPOSES DISPUTED…”
That means for a lay person (ignorant person) like you that this is an issue not for the court as the parties have accepted these figures for this case!
Now which part of paragraph 22 ‘establishes’ these figures as facts?
Seems like “Mr Know it All” knows very little even after research:)
Sometimes I am left speechless by the depth of ignorance shown by those who want to twist the truth for their own ends…:))
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
Now proof of your ignorance of the law is complete.
just took a look at paragraph 22 of the judgement – and though you may not understand legalise – you should understand common sense (but then again I give you too much credit).
This paragraph simply asserts what was accepted by the parties. It has NOTHING to do with the court affirming that this is correct or incorrect.
Seems like you reading of the judgement is at best suspect and more likely an act of ’spin’ on your part to twist waht a court of law is capable of doing!
If you don’t take my word for it – I suggest you invest a little money in manual of International Law and you may, just may find that as per usual you have been speaking from that part of your anatomy where the sun does not shine!
The telling words are: “…and the general effect of the figures is NOT FOR THE PRESENT PURPOSES DISPUTED…”
That means for a lay person (ignorant person) like you that this is an issue not for the court as the parties have accepted these figures for this case!
Now which part of paragraph 22 ‘establishes’ these figures as facts?
Seems like “Mr Know it All” knows very little even after research:)
Sometimes I am left speechless by the depth of ignorance shown by those who want to twist the truth for their own ends…:))
Stick to fixing Sat TV and Russian Brides or whatever it is you do in your work life. But please don’t try and pretend you know or understand anything about the law – when you patently know little at best…and a little knowledge is dangerous:)
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
So good he posted it twice!
You don’t need to be a lawyer to understand plain English. I will ignore you pathetic attempts to undermine my ability to understand our language. Your quote conveniently omitted the important part of the original quote “AND THE GENERAL EFFECT OF THE FIGURE”. To me this means that the Court accepted the figures as fact, they certainly were not in dispute at the Orams trial.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
When you get a qualification in law let your clients know your total lack of comprehension of OUR language! You can also let them know you are vetry good at half-truths.
If you are so certain of your argument take it to Mr A’s counsel and see if they agree with you or with me and let’s see you put your money where your big mouth is – because I would easily wager that you are wrong in law and wrong in fact!
God! Your are obscene in your quotation – of the paragraph – it states:
“and the general effect of the figures is NOT FOR PRESENT PURPOSES DISPUTED”
IT RELATES TO THE SPECIFIC CASE – NOT TO THE GENERALITY OF ESTABLISHING A FACT. You know PRESENT PURPOSES! GET IT?
Just wonder whether your intellect is affected by being surrounded by so many highly ediucated GCs:)?
Or perhaps you believe because a GC won a case in the ECJ it makes all of those living in the ROC fully fledged legal eagles!
Let’s face some real facts – you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the law and more importantly you have quoted the paragraph you claim supports your contention out of context.
I would bet anyone with even a modicum of legal common sense can work out what the paragraph means so for the sake of clarity here a link to a ROC forum where the page is posted for anyone’s perusal – so you can be sure it ha not been doctored in any shape or form!
Now, can we have some apologies for the nonesense you have written or is that impossible when your ideology stems from the gutter?
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxfKYtA
You see the difference between you and me is simple – I realy on facts not on abridged “Faction”!
I won’t be holding my breadth for an apology because those who support the GC cuase are invariably to full of their egos to admit when they have shown to be wrong!
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
No need to refer me to the judgment, I have a copy. The 32 page judgment is no doubt a summary of what was said in Court, it is not a verbatim record. Do not expect an apology from me, as I previously said the figures were not disputed at the Orams trial.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry, the figures have not been independently verified and are currently in dispute no matter what the non-experts said in Court.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Well perhaps that is why the Orams lost the case, they relied on non-experts and supported their case with unverified facts. Does this mean they committed perjury?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Do I have to spell it out for you Jerry? These were people were not experts with access to Land Registry statistics. This was not part of their brief. They accepted the statement about land ownership without being able to verify it…
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
Exactly!
It is what one side asserted for the purposes of this case. It is NOT what the court has ruled or as you put it ‘established’.
If you do not understand legalise I suggest you take on a legal adviser – going on your own assumptions you are likely to do yourself a mischief!
Glad now that you have posted the major part of the paragraph anyone with a basic command of the English language can see what it means…all that is save you who simply cannot or will not understand! Touche!:)
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
So where did they get the figures from? Did they make them up? Their brief is to represent their clients’ best interest and support it with accurate verifiable facts and to challenge/dispute false claims from the other side. If the sources close to the “trnc” supplied the figures (I doubt they would believe the ROC) then why should we not accept them as an indication of the true picture.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
Who died and made you God?
Never “met” a more self-righteous egotistical know it all on any forum anywhere in the world.
Must be something in your DNA that makes you so disagreeable as a person?
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
You said:
“Whatever your views about the deeds issue, the simple fact is GCs and the ROC have not made a “business” from seling off TC land to third parties in the south. This is not the case in the north”
Should you not qualify that with ‘to the best of my knowledge’?
Because I for one can tell you TC land is and has been for sale in the south – there are even some proceedings pending regarding the same.
Just where do you get off on having a total monopoly of all knowledge regarding Cyprus, the English Legal system, etc,. etc,.
Are you just a fool who likes to display his ignorance in public so he can be ridiculed?
Jerry, do yourself and everyone here a favour – go see a shrink. There must be something in your childhood or upbringing that you always have to be right even when you are talking out of the proverbial part of your anatomy where the sun does not shine!
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
Give up the ghost.
You are wrong in fact and wrong in law.
Paragraph 22 when read even by a child of 10 or 11 can see what it means – perhaps you can’t becaise you have those big GC propagnada blinkers covering your eyes!
Are you for real still debating this point when it should be plain as the nose on your face?
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Personal insults are usually the response from one who feels she has lost an argument.
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
That’s the point. Orams are parties to the trial they do not vouch for nor speak on behalf of the TRNC or anyone other than themselves.
Stop kidding yourself that you are some kind of legal eagle.
Stick to your Sat Tv and Brides from Russia or whatever it is that you do to earn a living.
Whatever else you do…don’t for Godsake become a lawyer – unless you want to become a public laughing stock:) Sorry – you already are a public laughing stock:)
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Quote Moover: -
“Because I for one can tell you TC land is and has been for sale in the south – there are even some proceedings pending regarding the same.”
Source?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
Where exactly is the insult? I believe you are streching the word insult when all I have said represents an observation of your lack of decorum in understanding basic legal jargon and being humble to admit that you got it wrong!
But I would expect nothing less from you – as you are from that school of thought that says to admit to making a mistake means you are weak and feeble – what you should recognise is that it takes a real human to admit when they got it wrong!
Of course if you want me to insult you I can always oblige:)
Still, can’t ever see you accepting that – so as I said earlier I will not be holding my breadth for your apology!
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
Apart from what I am dealing with in a professional capacity of which you know nothing -take a look at what I posted here earlier:
http://www.internal-displacement.org/8025708F004CE90B/(httpCountrySummaries)/7D0D770D77A297E4C12573A80050B962?OpenDocument&count=10000
Read, learn….Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
Satisfied? Still believe you know it all?
Tell me what’s your source for being a “Mr Know it all”
Your parents? Your wife? Your ego?
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I’m unsure who is the know it all. You have a pretty good claim yourself.
Paragraph 2 of the source you quoted is not true “During the last wave of displacement in 1974, Greek Cypriots fled to the southern part of the Republic of Cyprus” Many thousands of Greek Cypriots were displaced after 1974 despite an agreement with Denktash that they could remain.
One has to wonder how many other inaccuracies there are, when I get time I will read the whole source.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I highly doubt if you actually read those links you give us from time to time Moover..
either that or if you do read them
It seems to me you are a selective reader of the worst kind:
once again Copy paste for you:
The GRC has continued to provide housing free of charge to holders of the Refugee Identity Card since 1974, housing about 97,000 families primarily in urban areas (GRC, 2009). These families were given the right to use and bequeath these homes, but ownership rested with the government. In 2006, the GRC decided to issue title deeds to residents of this housing and some 15,000 families are due to receive title deeds by the end of 2009 (IDMC interview, March 2009). >>>>>>>>>Families living in Turkish Cypriot homes or properties built on Turkish Cypriot land will not be eligible; they will instead receive a plot of government land in the district they currently live in. This is because under GRC law, dispossessed Turkish Cypriots continue to be regarded as the owners of their properties and are in principle entitled to recover property lost as a result of the conflict. Although Greek Cypriots living in Turkish Cypriot homes have security of tenure and can bequeath their rights over these homes, they feel their tenure is uncertain due to reports of Turkish Cypriots returning and Greek Cypriots being told to move out.
i think this link with your comment below :
”Because I for one can tell you TC land is and has been for sale in the south – there are even some proceedings pending regarding the same.”
proves beyond ΑΝΥ doubt that:
Your anti-Greek feelings are fuzzing your judgment.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
You are a laugh a minute – just take a look at yourself in the mirror – and no doubt you’d mistake waht you see there for perfection!
The report is an INDEPENDENT report from a world renowned organisation.
It is not take from your little GC propagnada booklet nor is it taken from your own inventive yet myopic mind!
“POSSESSION HAS BEEN, IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE 9/10THS OF THE LAW”.
The difference between your comments and mine are simple. I can talk on the law as it is my profession, you my dear GC sympathiser are out of your depth when it comes to law and in particular the English Legal System or EU law!
Of course after repairing so many Sat Tvs and selling 100’s of Russian brides you may be qualified in what you do – but that makes you an entertainer with a side line in human trading – nothing more and nothing less:)and certainly no expert on the law or on Cyprus!
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Kyriacos:
What do you think the GC government is doing in issuing the title deeds? Allowing succession? The trick you and your government are trying to play is simple – have a law that says one thing and actually do another.
That way you have covered all the bases!
There are several cases where title deeds have been issued on TC land and moreover, when you want a piece of land you redesignate it as ‘public use’.
Seems like the Greek word hypocrisy has been put to good use by the GC:)
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Source of information that TC land is being sold to GCs:
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/aristofanis-georgiou/cassoulides-turkish-cypriot-property-issue-exaggerated
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Dominic,
you made an excellent prediction of the future. Orams case is a new start for TRNC in the right direction and a bad one for the Greeks. It is easy to deal and scare the EU citizens. onces the British are gone, the vacume will be filled with the ones that will come and stay perminantly, such as Russian, the mainland Turks, even recently with the Iranians and other countries that are not EU member. Yet, many British will also sell whatever they have in England and move to TRNC permanently.
I conguratulate the Greeks for anothe big mistake they have made. They will lose in the future if they keep playing with this problem.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
In my experience persons who feel the need to continuously remind us of their credentials are indeed lightweights.
Indeed as you say “POSSESSION HAS BEEN, IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE 9/10THS OF THE LAW” but that assumes that the “possession” is in a functioning recognised legal system – which the “trnc” is not.
Even INDEPENDENT repots can contain inaccuarcies and untruths, a person with a fine legal intellect such as yours should know that. May I refer you to Christopher Hitchens book pages 107 and 108 which you may view here : – http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28293&start=50
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Ridva,
So you think that the action that Mr Apostolides took was wrong.
What he should have done of course , according to the British cheapskates , is to forget his ancestral land and perhaps should have helped the Orams by sending them a few trees to plant on his land.
I do not hide my immense contempt for all those low down Cheapskates who marched ahead regardless of realities and invested in stolen land .
The Orams have had their taste of legality and justice now it will be the turn of many more pikers.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Moover , since when did a British yob such as you become an expert in law ! You live in a part of the world that the entire international community regards as being under the occupation of Turkey. You spew your venom at the G/Cs disregarding International legalities as recognized by the EC judgement and the Royal Court Of Justice stupendous acceptance of the EC judgement.
Jerry is more of a man that a low down cheapskate like you will ever be .I think you are full of air , shit scared that you may face the fate of the Orams , running scared and wetting your self.
I think all those cheapskates who enter Cyprus vis illegal ports of entry should have arrest warrants executed. Stay in the pseudo state and rot mate.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry:
Glad to see you retort in such a positive and constructive manner.
I only mentioned my profession once – yes, Jerry, just once. If you think it has been more than once prove it. Go back and do your research – and try harder not to make things up – even if they sound good at the time – you know you will get caught out and then you’ll look really stupid – but I would guess you are used to that by now:)
Jerry – exactly on which planet are you living?
Fuctioning as defined by whom? Recognised by whom?
Tell me Tibet is a part of China in your esteemed assessment methodology?
How many countries recognise China’s rule over Tibet? What about Indian controlled Kashmir? What about Kosovo? The Norther Causcuses? Chechniya? What happened to te Former Republic of Yugoslavia?
Then also look at Israel and Palestine? Does Isreal have the right to build settlements in the occupied territories? It does if it has the might and the backing of the USA!
Please don’t take us who are sympathetic to the TCs to be as mentally challeneged as many of the GC posters here and elsewhere!
Sometimes I wonder if you are really engaged in the thinking process or do your fingers work on the basis of your ego that you cannot be wrong?
Possession is 9/10th of the law in ANY case.
Before you come back just think about this for a moment.
The Geneva Conventions are agreed by all “civilised nations”! So why is the USA and the UK allowed to ignore these at their will?
Answer? Because they can.
It might surprise you but even though it derides what I do, I can acknowldge that international law is driven by power.
When one country has the might (not just military, but also strategic) they can dictate whether international legal norms apply to them or not!
In that sense the TRNC may not be recognised but it still holds the land.
The solution will be ONLY POLITICAL.
The sooner you understand that the better for all.
QED: Poseession has been, is and will always be 9/10ths of the law!
As for Christopher Hitchins – a good intellect but often unlike others here – more ego driven than reality driven!
Enjoy:)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Yawn….Yawn…Yawnnniisss!
1. I do not live in the TRNC nor do I have any property there of any kind. So let’s put that assumtion, lie or myth – whatever you want to call it to bed.
2. As for what I know about the law – that’s for me to know and you to find out – modesty wouldn’t allow me to float my own boat:)
3. As for international legalities – let me teach you something you may find difficult to comprehend but at least I will have done my best to help you with your legal education. In international law there are conventions, treaties, bi-lateral agreemenets, multi-lateral agreements and customary international law. The only players are ’states’ and states are those which are recognised by other states. With me so far?
Okay, now the TRNC is not a recognised entity – so by definition it is not bound by international law. You cannot sue an entity which in terms of international law does not exist.
However, we know that it exists de facto. Whilst we also know that international law recognises the ROC as the De Jure government of the entire island but NOT in de facto control of the north.
So we have a dilema? What the TRNC does it cannot be technically held to account.
We’ll come back to this point in a moment.
4. Also in international law when some powerful state has a change in policy is can and does ignore international law. Take the USA who suspended the Geneva Conventions in terms of the ‘enemy combatants’ in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. It has ignored the conventions on Torture – Guantanamo; It has permitted ‘extra ordinary rendition’ and it has ignored the rules of self defence in invading Iraq.
So you see, international law is law of a kind but with a deep poltical bent – which is equated with power. That is why Israel can get away with bombarding Gaza and killing thousands and building illegal settlements on occupied territories.
5. Now we come back to the TRNC. You have a de facto government in an ‘occupied’ territory which happened after a ‘civil war’ and an invasion by Turkey.
Though you may think that the land taken is GC land – in international law it is occupied land.
6. What the ECJ ruled is that even when the ROC does not have de facto control over the TRNC they have the De jure control and therefore their judgements can be enforced in any EU country as there is a 2001 directive to that end. It also ruled Protocol 10 did not apply as Orams had argued to protect the TRNC.
Now this is the problem.
Mr A has a judgement which he can enforce in the UK. If the Oramses do what is asked of them and apply for the property to be demolished, vacate the land and pay the rent they have complied with the judgement. The question is what if the TRNC refuses to demolish the property? What can the UK courts do? Answer…we don’t know for sure, but if the Oranses have done everything they could reasonably be expected to do – the courts will let it rest there.
The upshot. Mr A still does not have his land back. He will not be having a cocktail on ‘his’ land anytime soon.
If the TRNC offer him compensation and the IPC is recognised by the ECHR then he has to show why he will bot take that or alternative land offered by the TRNC.
In the end the conclusion: POSSESSION IS AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN 9/10THS OF THE LAW – and as such this is where the GC come unstuck.
If you read what I have written here and elsewhere I have said the ONLY way forward is a POLITICAL SOLUTION!
QED
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Thats a nice link Malcolm i ll sure use it in my blog as well to remind GC about this scandal. Thanks. I think it will be a good idea to compare it with the Orams Case, it will make a good article.
But allow me to correct your grammar a little bit..
Its not present continuous its past simple.
Gc side is not selling TC land.
A corrupted politician back in the dark days exploied tc land by abusing his position.
As we can discern from the outdated article of that era, when this event was made public by press Gc society received this as a huge scandal – As a big of a deal-
copy paste for you.
”FOREIGN MINISTER Yiannakis Casoulides yesterday dismissed the ’scandal’ of Greek Cypriots buying up Turkish Cypriot properties in the south as a lot of fuss over nothing.”
Scandals occur in all democratic countries even in Britain. You should start worrying if no scandals ever came out, this phenomenon is only observed in totalitarian societies or fascist regimes since power tends to corrupt people.
The fundamental difference between the 2 communities is that
The TC society up till today consider this malfeasance/injustice as something legitimate.
I believe an objective observer can see the obvious deference between the 2 cultures.
I believe if the TC owner recourse to justice he ll win the case.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Kyriacos:
Please take a moment to read, digest then comment! I have said this to your commarade Yawn Yawn Yannniiiss – but wanted to let you read it too! (Yes, Jerry, if you read this it is deliberately posted twice – just for your benefit so you don’t waste your time telling me)!
1. I do not live in the TRNC nor do I have any property there of any kind. So let’s put that assumtion, lie or myth – whatever you want to call it to bed.
2. As for what I know about the law – that’s for me to know and you to find out – modesty wouldn’t allow me to float my own boat:)
3. As for international legalities – let me teach you something you may find difficult to comprehend but at least I will have done my best to help you with your legal education. In international law there are conventions, treaties, bi-lateral agreemenets, multi-lateral agreements and customary international law. The only players are ’states’ and states are those which are recognised by other states. With me so far?
Okay, now the TRNC is not a recognised entity – so by definition it is not bound by international law. You cannot sue an entity which in terms of international law does not exist.
However, we know that it exists de facto. Whilst we also know that international law recognises the ROC as the De Jure government of the entire island but NOT in de facto control of the north.
So we have a dilema? What the TRNC does it cannot be technically held to account. Hence the Protocol 10, which Mr A’s team alleged and the ECJ accepted was to protect the ROC from being sued by actions taken by the TRNC government!
We’ll come back to this point in a moment.
4. Also in international law when some powerful state has a change in policy is can and does ignore international law. Take the USA who suspended the Geneva Conventions in terms of the ‘enemy combatants’ in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. It has ignored the conventions on Torture – Guantanamo; It has permitted ‘extra ordinary rendition’ and it has ignored the rules of self defence in invading Iraq.
So you see, international law is law of a kind but with a deep poltical bent – which is equated with power. That is why Israel can get away with bombarding Gaza and killing thousands and building illegal settlements on occupied territories.
5. Now we come back to the TRNC. You have a de facto government in an ‘occupied’ territory which happened after a ‘civil war’ and an invasion by Turkey.
Though you may think that the land taken is GC land – in international law it is occupied land.
6. What the ECJ ruled is that even when the ROC does not have De Facto control over the TRNC they have the De Jure control and therefore their judgements can be enforced in any EU country as there is a 2000/1 directive to that end. It also ruled Protocol 10 did not apply as Orams had argued to protect the TRNC but to protect the ROC.
Now this is the problem.
Mr A has a judgement which he can enforce in the UK. If the Oramses do what is asked of them and apply for the property to be demolished, vacate the land and pay the rent they have complied with the judgement.
The question is what if the TRNC refuses to demolish the property?
What can the UK courts do?
Answer…we don’t know for sure, but if the Oranses have done everything they could reasonably be expected to do – the courts will let it rest there in all probability.
The upshot. Mr A still does not have his land back. He will not be having a cocktail on ‘his’ land anytime soon.
Further, if the TRNC offer him compensation and a mediation process through the IPC which is recognised by the ECHR then he has to show why he will bot take that or alternative land offered by the TRNC.
So, if you have read the above carefully, you will note three things:
(i) That even though Mr A has won his case he has no means of forcing the Oramses to demolish the villa and hand it over to him. Since the Oramses are subject to cgetting permission from the TRNC to demolish the villa – any failure to do so can not be construed as ‘contempt of court’ by the Oramses.
(ii) That the ROC can not force the TRNC any more than the ECJ or the Court of Appeal in the UK!
(iii) That the only ‘power’ capable of acting is not the TRNC but Turkey – which is the guarantee power for Cyprus along with Greece and the UK. However, getting Turkey to act to the detriment of TCs whom they believe they have defended against a potential genocide would be a difficult proposition in law as well as in reality. Turkey is a NATO power and has a huge strategic interest for the USA.
So that is the conundrum for the GC, the UK courts and the ECJ.
How do you square this circle? Only through a negotiated settlement.
I cannot see for example, 15 or 20,000 TCs say living in and around Girne being forced to move out and GC moving back from the south. It just will not happen. It is not in the political interest of Turkey, Greece, UK nor the ROC to have such a spectacle.
In the end POSSESSION IS AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN 9/10THS OF THE LAW – and as such this is where the GC come unstuck.
If you read what I have written here and elsewhere I have said the ONLY way forward is a POLITICAL SOLUTION!
So, you can pride yourselves on winning the Orams case, you can harp on about international law, human rights, ECJ et al, but you are ignoring the FACTS ON THE GROUND!
Unless and until the GC government and people acknowldge this nothing much will change. Yes, the case will affect the TRNC economically, but like any other situation the market will find a new equilibrium and the TRNC will find new ways to move ahead.
As I have said before the Orams case is just one battle in the war.
Celebrate your victory but remember when you awake from the drunken stupor the TRNC will still be alive and kicking and Mr A will still not have ‘his’ land!
Now tell me which part of this do you not understand?
QED
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Other people already come and live in our houses on the North part.
Turkish people alone are a market of 80.000.000 Cheapskates
But
As long as beautiful British roses come to our side we are just fine
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
No need for a word count Moover, even to someone like myself, who according to you is stupid (yet another unnecessary insult), it is quite clear from your postings that sooner or later you would claim to be, as you doubtless are, a lawyer.
I am surprised at your chosen profession, however, I would have thought that a military career would have suited you better since you obviously believe “might is right”
Countries that ignore international law and simply take what they want by force are morally corrupt in my view; their actions should not be endorsed or supported by someone who claims to be a lawyer.
I take it you did not bother to read Christopher Hitchen’s report. Here is part from page 109. On 9 December Dr Waldheim reported to the United Nations “from 7,371 on 5 June 1976 the Greek Cypriot population in the north decrease to 3,631 on 6 December”. No doubt these figures are in UN records. If you bother to read both pages I quoted you will see that Denktash was/is not a man of his word – but then he is a lawyer.
So much for the veracity of your INDEPENDENT source, which claimed: -
“During the last wave of displacement in 1974, Greek Cypriots fled to the southern part of the Republic of Cyprus” I wonder how many other “independent sources” have shaped your very one-sided view of the Cyprus Problem.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
OMG! you are Cherie Blair!
OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG
Huge fan of your role in Star Wars by the way.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
K, I believe we’ve now moved on from the “no TC land was sold in the south” myth and what I do notice was there was no mention of reversing these sales. Perhaps these were sloppy corrupt politicians who got found out? Who knows perhaps you’re right, it was simple in the past to catch them but now they do it continuously and are not caught.
Mover, nice one!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Maybe The sure thing is i am not getting any!
I don’t think thats true though.
Cyprus is not what you think it is..
You lived in the north part for 2 long.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
For what it matters AKEL promoted a legislation for FULL transparency on the TC properties issue.
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politis-news.com%2Fcgibin%2Fhweb%3F-A%3D916073%26-V%3Darchivearticles&sl=el&tl=en
The link also provides more info about other stuff..
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Moover, if you cannot back an allegation with credible evidence then SHUT IT and move on because Jerry is correct:
Not a single TC property has ever been sold.
http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/citizenscharter/citizenscharter.nsf/dmltkprologue_en/dmltkprologue_en?OpenDocument
PS: If you think you’re good on the CyProb come to the CF (which is a proper forum and also doesn’t chew up half the posts), and unkie will swiftly put you out of your “debating” misery, on this and any other CyProb allegation you may care to invent.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry, Jerry,
I couldn’t quite believe this one…”yet another unnecessary insult”! Have you been reading any of the rants coming from the GC side? Have you noticed ANY unnecessary insults in any of them? One somewhere maybe? Gawd…
And you simply don’t seem capable of avoiding the use of spin, mate. “Countries that ignore international law and simply take what they want by force”…do you really, REALLY believe it was that simple? If so, you are being very simplistic.
And your last comment about a “very one-sided view of the Cyprus problem”?
There are always two sides to that question mate. Talk about pots and kettles!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Mr Real,
Clearly you are a GC extremist, but I hadn’t quite realised the extent of your arrogance and ego before…overwhelming!
Your link is supposed to prove what, exactly? It’s nothing more than a government notice…a ROC government notice…which establishes nothing other than what is SUPPOSED to be the case. In reality? Who knows?
What did surprise me more than the discovery of your massive ego was your apparent claim that this forum “chews up half the posts”. Are you implying some sort of censorship here? Why would the CF be a better forum for debate? Would it be that you feel more comfortable there because it is infested with like minds? Minds like yours, I mean…scary thought that that is!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Morning folks,
This early prickly birds perceives a lot of wriggling went on
last night from the GC worms.
Can one of you GC guys tell me if the 1 cent refugee stamp is sold
still every time one buys a stamp. Is the GC government still
levying the 10% security tax on bank interest? Just interested.
How is (or was) the money raised in the sale of refugee stamps
distributed amongst the refugees. Are we supposed to believe
that a country who is wealthy enough to be a net contributer to the EU really needs to raise money this way? (your claim not mine)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Get Real:
Get Real…I wish you would
I am on this forum because I choose to be. You are here too because you choose to be. If you cnnot deal with the facts on the ground then quite frankly that is your problem – so please don’t make your problem my problem – touche
Let me tell you what I see as the impact of the Oramses case.
1. There will be a short term decline in the TRNC property market – but at some point it will find a new equilibrium – where the risks and uncertainties are priced in. The TRNC will find new ways to move ahead.
2. Mr A will not get his land back. If the Oramses ‘obey’ the UK enforcement judgement they will only have to vacate the property, pay the back rent, and show they have taken ‘reasonable’ steps to have the villa demolished. If the TRNC refuses to grant planning permission for demolition – there is nothing the ROC, UK or the ECJ can do about it. The Oramses will not be in contempt of court and Mr A will not be able to touch their UK property!
3. The only power which can influence or even perhpas dictate what the TRNC’s response will be is Turkey. It would be political suicide for them to capitulate to legal blackmail when they believe that the initial invasion was to prevent a genocide of TC. Even if the EU puts pressure on Turkey with the carrot of memberhip – it is unlikely to have any impact as the Turkish government will only do what in its best interst. The USA needs the support of Turkey (a NATO member) for its Middle East strategy and will not allow the EU and others to put undue pressue on Turkey. Both Turkey and the UK have been promoting a negotiated settlement – and Greece has belatedly joined in that process. That is what the Annan plan was in 2004 when the TC accepted it and the GC in their infinite greed chose to reject it.
4. The difference between the TRNC and the ROC in terms of ’selling’ each others property is this: The TRNC believes that everything north of the Greenline is theirs and everything south is that of the GC. They have been openly selling GC – exchange land and TC property. The ROC keeps a legal pretence of not ’selling’ TC property but uses excuses like ‘public purposes’ to benefit the their cronnies in business in the ROC – so ineffect they ’sell’ TC property. They have also turned a blind eye to the issuing of titles to the TC land. If you calim they haven’t done so – then as I have asked provide a list of all TC land in the south and show exactly what’s happened to it. If, as you claim nothing has happened, then the exercise should be relatively easy to do – especially since you GC claim to be amongst the most well educated and developed people in the EU – let’s see the colour of the TC titles. The fact is the ROC cannot do this – if it did it would expose the lie of its ‘legal’ shield’.
An exercise in futility. Evidence is that which can be INDEPENDENTLY verified. Now, go off and find that evidence if you can!
Further, giving me a link to a GC goverment site telling me nothing has happened to TC is like getting a hand written note from Alcapone saying he never killed anyone
5. So given the above don’t you think you should be ‘getting real’ and acknowledge that no matter how many cases you win in the UK, ECJ or the ROC – you will still not possess the land. As for International Law (see what I have written to your compatriot Kyriacos) – it is only ‘law’ of a kind as it has a large political dimension to it. Ask yourself why could the USA ignore the Geneva Conventions in relation to enemy combatants or torture? Why is Israel able to build property on occupied territories of the Palsetinians? Why the US ignored conventions on torture – Guantanamo / extra ordinary rendition – the answer – Because they can – they have the power! In the TRNC Turkey has the power. The facts on the ground have changed in 35 years. Quite what the GC can do about it – apart from harp on the sidelines is hard to imagine.
The ONLY way forward is a POLITICAL SOLUTION but as your government and people who rejected this in 2004, it is unlikely to produce any resolution in the near future. However, this is the ONLY way forward.
In time you will see that the De Facto situation on the ground will be the De Jure solution too! I cannot see tens of thousands of TC being shipped out of their homes in the north for GC to move back. It just will not happen.
It is not in the political interests of the ROC, Greece, UK nor Turkey let alone the EU.
P.S. I don’t think I am ‘good’ on the Cyprus Problem – I just know that I can deal with the facts, laws and political intrigues that shed light rather than heat. Perhaps, just perhaps if you sat down and took off your GC hat – and looked at the facts – you too would see the ONLY way forward is a POLITICAL NEGOTIATED SOLUTION. Taking ex-pats to court may make great healines but it will not get back even one inch of what you ‘allege’ to be GC land.
In the end if you get real and negotiate in good faith unlike 2004, there is every chance you will get a satisfactory settlement. If you don’t your grandchildren and great grandchildren will be lamenting your intransigence in negotiating a setllement and 50, 60, 75 years from now you’ll still be talking about us and them, north and south, GC and TC!
The choice is yours – Get Real
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
YS,
“I think all those cheapskates who enter Cyprus vis illegal ports of entry should have arrest warrants executed.”
You keep saying this and I have asked you before, more than once, – if it’s illegal, why doesn’t it happen?
Is it lack of bottle because you know even your courts wouldn’t wan’t to tangle with it?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Jerry:
So when you lose the argument you move on to another aspect of debate!
Okay, let’s deal with what you have said head on.
1. I do not condone what the USA, UK, Israel or for that matter Turkey does with their might. However, let’s also be realistic – it is the ONLY reality on the ground – like it or loathe it – that matters in the end. And FYI in general I am a pacifist – so a military career would hardly be suitable for me – though I am sure a career in the circus might suit you well
2. On that premise whatever my occupation is or is not is totally irrelevant. Though it would help to know that I do not make assertions based on bias and prejudice but on fact and realities. I am not anti GC. I am anti the GC position on negotiations. I am anti-the notion that GC are always right and have the ‘higher moral ground when this is patently not the case – whether dealing dupliciously with the TC property in the south whilst maintaining a legal shield to their intransigence in finding a way forward when in 2004 they rejected the Annan plan becuase what they want is a total capitualtion of the TC and a top prize of a Cyprus free of TCs!
3. I don’t need to say you are stupid for it to be true – you are doing a great job all by yourself in painting that picture
4. As for Christopher Hitchins – as I have sasid a great intellect but one driven by ego and not much else – perhaps you and CH share the same DNA?
5. I don’t understand your point on the link to an independent organisation dealing with internal displacement. If you are arguing I only read one sided propaganda then you’d be wrong. I have spent a considerable time in the ROC and have met and spoken to many people who have not just a problem with the TRNC but with the very existence of TCs on the island of Cyprus.
Be that as it may, the point still remains when you made your assertion on Paragraph 22 of the judgement you were wrong both in fact and in law.
Sometimes being a little humble does make one a better human.
Maybe you ought to try it! But as always I look forward to another rant from you and of course more GC propaganda based on your version of the Cyprus history – which if I recall our discussions on C44 always stemmed from your belief that the history of Cyprus property began in 1974!
You are a laugh a minute
Let’s play your game and see how many lawyers you can name who actually made history in a positive fashion…and then let’s see how many Sat TV salesmen and Russian Bride traders made a positive contribution to history…:)
Ummmm I wonder wht the outcome will be
Enjoy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Moover your 8.35 post, which argument have I lost? I stand by what my interpretation of paragraph 22. Based on what was written in the judgment notice, perhaps the word “accepted” would be more accurate than “established” but there was more to the issue in Court than simply appeared in the notice.
As to you making assertions based on facts and realities you have shown in your “discussion” with me that that is untrue. To the best of my knowledge I have never had a discussion with you on CY44, I have never claimed that the Cyprus Problem started in 1974 and God knows where you get the idea that I repair Sat TVs and sell 100s of Russian brides. So much for your “facts and realities” you simply make it up when it suits you.
Had you bothered to read and digest the text of the source that you kindly provided you would have seen that it clearly contradicted itself: – “By the end of 1975, only 130 Turkish Cypriots remained in the south and 10,000 Greek Cypriots were left in the north (Hannay, 2005; Coufoudakis, 2006). The number of Greek Cypriots in the north gradually decreased to about 1,000 by 1981”. So no need to believe Hitchens, rely on your own confused source.
As to dealing duplicitously with the TC property in the south Your confused source also on the matter of land appropriation says; – http://www.internal-displacement.org/8025708F004CE90B/(httpCountrySummaries)/7D0D770D77A297E4C12573A80050B962?OpenDocument&count=10000 “In 2006, the GRC decided to issue title deeds to residents of this housing and some 15,000 families are due to receive title deeds by the end of 2009 (IDMC interview, March 2009). Families living in Turkish Cypriot homes or properties built on Turkish Cypriot land will not be eligible; they will instead receive a plot of government land in the district they currently live in. This is because under GRC law, dispossessed Turkish Cypriots continue to be regarded as the owners of their properties and are in principle entitled to recover property lost as a result of the conflict. Although Greek Cypriots living in Turkish Cypriot homes have security of tenure and can bequeath their rights over these homes, they feel their tenure is uncertain due to reports of Turkish Cypriots returning and Greek Cypriots being told to move out.” As I have said on previous occasions, GCs have not made a business from selling off TC property to third parties.
I have always said that both sides are equally to blame for the situation in Cyprus. The roots of the problem are much deeper and wider than the tragic events that occurred on the island. I suggest that in relation to Turkey the ROC is at a political and military disadvantage, you can’t blame GCs for using whatever means at their disposal to defend their rights, in that sense they do occupy the high moral ground.
You say you are not anti GC, I find that hard to believe, what a pity CY44 is down.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Jerry, because these statistics are so important you couldn’t point us to where the evidence for them came from, apart from the mouth of someone at the trial? That’s a rhetorical question by the way.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
1
that’ll do me Jerry
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
2
Self analysis – good the ‘boys’ are getting somewhere with you then.
I’ll leave you in the capable hands of Vaughan and Moover.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
2 
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
1
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
0 
1
Thought for the day.
If the ex pat purchaser had foolishly insisted on paying more
than the market value and asking price for the alleged
stolen land/property would they no longer qualify as cheapskates
or carpetbaggers?
Oh dearie me, what would you call them then – seems heads they
loose, tails they loose.
All they really are, are people in the autumn if their lives
wanting to live quietly and safely in the sun. The GC’s have to
have someone to blame, if they look inside themselves they dont
like what they see. There has to be a scapegoat so they attack
the old and defenceless – no change there then.
I say this with love.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
4 
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
1 
6
I really despair for you Yawniss. I DO NOT HAVE A
PROPERTY IN MY NAME IN THE KKTC – I am however allowed to comment for those who have. I am also allowed to care for those who have. Now I know the words, empathy and compassion are alien
to you – but I am sure your late English wife possessed such
qualities and would be ashamed that you do not. Because people believe the Agent, the Lawyer the Government of a country
you are in dispute with, it does not make them bad. You have your
point of view – they have theirs. I choose to be sympathetic to
their plight. You choose to glory in it. On judgement day
I wonder which of us will get through those pearly gates??
I s
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
4 
0