North Cyprus Estate Agents the next target?
So, having won their court case against a trespasser on Greek Cypriot property in the north now it looks like lawyers in the south are preparing a case against those instructed by Turkish Cypriots, for example, to sell these properties. Of course they cannot target Turkish Cypriot Estate Agents, so instead their aim is to find a British Estate Agent who has assets in the EU.
Several Estate Agents come to mind but most have left behind their contacts with the old country and are therefore not suitable targets. There has always been a south Cyprus law which meant that sellers of GC property would be arrested if they ever set foot in the south, rather than bothering with “trespassing” individuals, whether they be TC cheap labour working in the south or otherwise.
Now, according to Overseas Property Professional there seems to be the beginnings of a campaign to find a suitable case which if successful would prevent EU citizens rushing to the TRNC to set up an Estate Agency during a recession and worldwide property slump. Clever thinking or are they struggling to maintain the momentum after plans to target visitors to the TRNC were ridiculed in the south?
It is beginning to look as if the legal approach to solving the Cyprus problem is beginning to lose steam. It looks like the TRNC government will refuse permission to demolish the Orams’ villa and point out that Mr A should now be using the Immovable Property Commission (IPC) instead of wasting valuable EU court time. This was not an option open at the time Mr A started his original legal battle, but if the fight over his property is now with the TRNC rather than the EU then he may be forced to use the IPC or give up all hope of having his property returned.
polly on 
stelios ioannou on 
john good on
Unfortunately, they cannot go after the agent who sold to me.
He advertised in the Sunday Mail in U.K. sent out glossy
leaflets stating TRNC Title 100% (I still have it) but no longer
trades.
I must admit I can’t see a “rush” of EU citizens to TRNC to set up estate agencies. For starters I don’t believe it’s all that easy to just set up shop and begin selling, and what’s more there are already quite a few EU estate agents in TRNC who have been there in business for many years. We went to three before finding our villa.
So do we know which estate agent sold the Orams their property?
Dominic,
There is no doubt that one of the first and easiest targets will be estate agents in nc. Estate agents that are directors/owners of the company registered in the “TRNC” will be considered liable for the same offences as the Orams have.
It is, at this point irrelevant, whether these properties are returned to the rightful owners (the GCs). For the time being it is very important to stop the develeopment of these properties in a way that it would make it very complicated to return to the original owners when the moment arrives (if it ever does).
The IPC issue is perhaps the only option out for by passing the problem. The issue here is that itg is down to the individual original owner whether they want to utilise this. Given the IPC compensation history, it is my opinion that it will soon be defunc other than perhaps some very desperate GCs who are in desperate need for cash.
Forcing the issue through the IPC will be very difficult and extremely time consuming. Any ruling of this type will take years by which time it will be too late for foreign EU owners of estate agencies (especially those who own and develop land on their own).
John D
This time it could not happen to a nicer set of individuals, I could think of one in particular. But not tackling TC agents is a bit raciest isn’t it – Oh sorry it’s the Roc we are talking about.
Well I stand to be corrected on this Dominic, but all TRNC estate agents have to be TRNC citizens – them’s the rules. I’m sure that any that “seem” to be UK EAs have a TRNC citizen heading-up the show, behind the scenes (without mixing too many metaphors).
Dominic!
Interesting perspective – however, I would summise this smacks more of a desire to keep the momentum going than any realistic hope on the side of the GC to achieve anything substantive. It is a propaganda exercise to reinforce the ‘fear’ factor of any dealings with TRNC property! Buy, sell or occupy TRNC property and x, y & z will happen to you! I would further guess that is designed to put pressure on Talat et al to make more compromises in the so called ‘talks’.
The problem for Mr A in the Orams case is clear for all to see. If the Oramses ‘comply’ with the enforcement insofar as they could reasonably be expected to do – what is Mr A left with? Certainly he will get the rent (some £25K) and a vacant villa on ‘his’ land! Will he get possession? Will the TRNC demolish the villa? Of course no! It will be the same – case after case – claim after claim!
So where is all this leading?
Simple. The GC want to get as much as possible from the TRNC which they believe they failed to get under Annan in 2004. The problem for the GC is this: suppose the TRNC does give up more – will TCs vote yes in a referendum thereafter? My reading is that the TCs will not take too kindly to ‘legal blackmail’ and even less of Talat for caving in. They will also remember that in 2004 both the GC and the EU short changed the TCs at the alter!
If the talks fail or should that read when the talks fail what will Cyprus be left with? Still two separate entities and misunderstandings / mistrust that goes back not 35 years but a lot longer than living memory!
I cannot see the two sides agreeing to a renewal of nuptials after such an acrimoniuous divorce.
Going after the Oramses, estate agents, tourist at the Dome Hotel or perhaps even after those who land at the ‘wrong’ airport – is to my mind desperate. Whatelse is left for the GC to do? The USA will not accept further sanctions and both the EU and UK are luke warm regarding the same.
Seems that the GC have boxed themselves in to such a degree that now going after the OAP’s pension maybe their next step!
Enjoy
VW:
Unfortunately the GC law is wide in its scope – it covers not just owning but working in the property industry. It would cover a secretary to a salesperson – it would even include commission agents and janitors!
They only have to show that you worked for a company which bought / sold / rented GC property.
Just like the Oramses they did not go after them on the basis of ownership but on the basis of occupation i.e trespass!
Hope this helps!
I think that the whole point might be to find estate agents with EU assets whilst not going for TCs who might be in the same situation. They may both have dual citizenships especially as a TRNC passport isn’t going to allow them to visit friends and relatives in the UK.
As far as OAPs pensions are concerned, they’ll find it difficult getting at the minimum pension because if they do the pensioner will just apply for a pension credit to take it back to the minimum again. I don’t think the UK government will be happy with that because the GC could then go after the pension credit… ad nauseum
Plus taking away a home in Cyprus, if it is their only home, could mean that pensioners come back to the UK and the government having to pay their rent, council tax etc
Mal:
I didn’t mean in fact – I meant just to scare the proverbial brown stuff out of UK pensioners here!
The tactics are clearly designed to create doubt and fear!
gotcha, just that a few people think that their pensions are assets that GCs can get hold of. Could be true beyond a certain level
Once they are seen to be picking on one particular race of people the courts will surely intervene – opps, perhaps not, we are dealing with the EU here. British courts do as they are told. We might as well close the lot down and save the embarrassment of kidding ourselves that we, not Brussels, run the UK.
That’s ok pauline, we;ll just come for you instead. Keep your property nice won’t you, the original owner would appreciate that.
My god what gillible people, a glossy says so, so it must be right. Whats the point of keeping it, if he no longer trades, who will YOU sue if it was all lies?
Sorry, but you guys are just jokers clutching at straws, your asses must be twitching like mad, knock knock, who’s that? Argghhhhh!
Moover, says :” any dealings with TRNC property! Buy, sell or occupy TRNC property and x, y & z will happen to you! I would further guess that is designed to put pressure on Talat et al to make more compromises in the so called ‘talks’.”"
So it is now TRNC Property is it ?
The EC did not think so and neither did the Royal Courts of Justice .
You are so desperate in defending the pseudo state you are beginning to sound like a fugitive on the run !
The G/Cs , as far as you are concerned , have …boxed themselves in… Is this because of their universally recognized legal state a member of the UN and of the EU , I wonder. So we are boxed in are we , we have our own currency , direct flights , an infrastructure that is efficient and productive , a nation that is thriving in every sense of the word , a social service that is equal and better than that of the UK , pensioners that receive adequate financial help , hospitals that treat all Cypriots including T/Cs free of charge and this Plonker says we are boxed in. Senile fool !
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:
Same old, same old….
Let me just remind you “Possession is 9/10ths of the Law”
Get used to it
Enjoy
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:
I thought I had given you too much credit in actually understanding the legal position and basic English language!
“Boxed in” refers to the fact that after 35 years what have you actually achieved – Sweet FA
ROC wanted more sanction the USA, UK and EU said no!
So you resort to chasing after OAP’s and tourist who fly in to the TRNC via Ercan!
That’s boxed in – i.e. no options but to go for the crumbs
Enjoy
I fully understand the legal position fool , do you understand who the legal sovereign entity is deemed to be in Cyprus according to European and INTERNATIONAL LEGISLATURE ?
The pseudo state is administered by a third world nation , the nation of Turkey.The majority of the T/Cs do not agree with the present situation. The majority of T/Cs , some 60 thousand plus , are citizens of the RoC with RoC IDs and passports.
The majority of T/Cs would rebel against their daughters marrying an Anatolian peasant. The majority of T/Cs are fed up to the teeth with the Turkish army and its corrupt practices , it seems that only senile British pensioners are comfortable with the continuing occupation of their country.
Moover , move your buttocks out of Cyprus mate , plonk yourself on a nice beech somewhere in Afganistan !
What a first class Plomker !
Says a senile old fool !!
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniisss:
Really…I am amazed. You understand that possession is 9/10ths of the law and the only way the GC will get any satisfaction is if they use the political route of negotiating with the TCs.
I would suggest from your language and lack of decorum that you are already a pensioner with deep seated emotional problems.
If you waited 35+ years just to get a “win” in the Orams case I would guess your great, great grandchildren would still be chasing the same dreams in another 35 years.
As for being senile – I would suggest someone who persisitently uses only two words is either clinically senile or just very stupid.
I’m sure people reading your posts and mine can easily see where the senility resides
P.S. I have no property in the TRNC but seems like a good time to go and buy some – tell me do you or your family have land or property in the TRNC? Maybe I’ll buy it and you can come and visit – we can share a drink on the terrace and watch as the sun goes down and another day passes with the GC being boxed in by their own intransigence…
You can’t have that many more years on this planet – let’s live it up in the TRNC
we can enjoy the views your ancestors must have had before being booted out by the Turkish army…
)
Come on – how about it?
Enjoy
You have got to stop looking at yourself in the mirror Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiiss…
Enjoy
The last thing that I wanted was to enter into a long winded debate with an individual who has on numerous occasions defended ferociously the right of the occupiers to be in continuance of the illegal occupation of a part of my country.
It is prudent that I bring to your attention A security Council Resolution dated June 29th 1999 , resolution number 1251 .
Before doing so let me make it abundantly clear that I have supported a political solution and I have considered the political arena as the ONLY process available in endeavouring the facilitation of fertile ground and common ground over which our two communities will strike an agreement. I underline ” our two communities to the total exclusion of imported Anatolians who are by large the biggest majority in the occupied part of Cyprus. Turkey set out to alter the demographics of our island contrary to Geneva convention applicable to such events.
The UN resolution of June 29th 1999 , no.1251 REAFFIRMS ITS POSITION THAT A CYPRUS SETTLEMENT MUST BE BASED ON A STATE OF CYPRUS WITH A SINGLE SOVEREIGNTY AND INTERNATIONAL PERSONALITY AND A SINGLE CITIZENSHIP , WITH ITS INDEPENDENCE AND TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY SAFEGUARDED AND COMPRISING OF TWO POLITICALLY EQUAL COMMUNITIES AS DESCRIBED IN THE RELEVANT SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS.
Turkey does not seem to be congenially ready , as yet , to abide by any resolution that does not confer on the occupied part of Cyprus the status of a separate nation , contrary to the UN resolution clearly stating the need for ONE single personality ONE single citizenship.
I have noted the fact as presented by you that you have no property in the “trnc” and should you do so in the future make certain that you are first certified because in light of recent developments only a fool would contemplate the thorny journey undertook by the Orams .
Have a good evening Plonker !
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:
Thank for your caring attitude to my deciding now may be a good time to buy property in the TRNC. More importantly, I would like to buy property that belonged to you or your family – at least that way I would have the satisfaction of knowing that you’d be happy for me to enjoy the property of your ancestors.
I am quite aware of the recent events but for me and many thousands of others nothing changes on the ground! Therein lies YOUR problem! As for being certified (thank you again for your concern) – however, I’m not too concerned as much as I may need certification the GC on the otherside of the Greenline seem to need a lot more! Madness and insanity are relative to what is perceived as ‘normal’!So in terms of Cyprus I’d be very safe from being certified whereas you and your GC colleagues here – who are still delusional about getting your property back need serious help
I am also impressed that you desire a ‘political solution’ something I have advocated to you from my first posting here – but I guess better late than never that you have acknowledged the same!
As far as the UN resolution is concerned it is the word ‘equality’ which seem to pose the greatest problem for GC – as they seem in all the negotiations over 35 years to believe that they have the higher moral ground and want it all. That is why the Annan plan failed in 2004 and that is why the longer you leave it the less likely it is that you will get anything especially in this lifetime!
I would suggest getting off your high horse and entering in to serious negotiations with the TCs and the TRNC government.
If you and your GC friends continue down the road you are presently engaged in – you will never achieve anything!
And 35 years from now your great, great grandchildren will wonder why you guys lost it all…
Enjoy
Enjoy
It’s the duty of the international community to ensure that in accordance with international law, the illegal entity found on Turkish-occupied Cypriot soil does not see the light of day…
UN RESOLUTION 541 (1983)
http://www.un.int/cyprus/scr541.htm
Why doesn’t Malcolm tell us why his site “chews up” posts?
Is he following in C44′s footsteps by any chance, albeit it less conspicuously?
If that’s the case, then we can guess what the end is gonna be…
I think its rather late for continuing this talk , or rather for me reprimanding you for your limited knowledge of the Cyprob. However let me tell you that I consider you a nasty piece of work , a man with no principles just a rather big mouth , or as my late father in law would say all talk and no balls.
I have advocated a peaceful political solution to the Cyprob many years ago so I do not need to interest my self with a senile fools preconceptions that somehow he was instrumental in instilling in me the need for a political solution.
As far as negotiations go , the T/Cs ARE NOT PART OF THE NEGOTIATIONS , TURKEY IS.
Do you understand that the T/Cs are a minority in the occupied parts and that Turkey has banned the term Turkish Cypriot substituting it with Turks of Cyprus ?
It is Turkey that we have to negotiate and the political omens are not in Turkeys favour any more than they are in the cheapskates favour.
Justice will prevail , Turkey will abandon her intransigent position and Cyprus will be united once again , one nation one people to hell with Turkey to hell with Greece and to hell with Cheapskates !!
Sleep well fool !
Turkey its just not a democratic country mate.
Its just impossible for any non-democratic county to admit a mistake- withdraw troops – pay the price – respect international agreements etc etc. France – Germany – Britain Only when they became true democracies start doing so. We all know that even with the Annan plan if we had voted yes Turkey would had failed to comply with its own part of the agreement since as it has been proved beyond any doubt that the military was ready for not just 1 but 4 coups.
Those British self-seekers deep down their hurts they know we are right but their pitiful selfish interests just wont let them admit it.
just a brunch of hypocrites – Go on- Burn your British passports since you are so into Turkey and ”trnc” Became citizens of that Countries only. Since you like so much the exotic beauty of the illegal – undeveloped North. And even stop coming to the South for the ”quality stuff”.
Go on Turkish lovers..
Maybe our biggest mistake as a country is that we rejected that shitty Annan plan thus living us holding the bloody bag..
But from the other hand if we had said yes all European citizens could move freely in our own country except from us.!
What a fair solution..
the brittish can continue to manipulate the cyprus problem for their own benefit.when all is said and done ,those foriegn oportunistic vultures that chose a quick buck over moral ethics and a blatant disregard for the legal owners that were expelled at gunpoint should not be shown mercy.
there will be another war in cyprus this i can vouch.the question is “what should i do with those oportunistic scum?” should the tables be turned .given that those britts,krauts (most of which are jews,thus usurping others land is an acceptable practice)didnt care about the rule of law?
i make this promise to you paracites.i will cold bloodedly execute you.your fathers ,mothers ,children whom ever i catch in my house and land.
your actions will have consequences.
moover
There is one no doubt:
a. You are a guest in this country and you have no real say in the matter (other than this forum maybe). It would be nice to respect your hosts and not act as if you belong here. You are just a visitor, at best, a passing tourist. Just the same you are welcome to stay and enjoy yourself as long as you act civil.
b. There is little point in talking to someone who insists on thinking that the TRNC has any kind of legal substance. I suppose (and I only assume) that you are now the proud holder of a piece of paper that says you own some assets in the TRNC. At this point in time, that paper has the same value as a roll of andrex. Not even the TCs banks will accept this piece of paper!!! The said asset is sold at a fraction of the price of all other sourrounding legal assets. Do we really need to point out that you have been sold a problem. And that is where the GC’s come in.
c. You (and those like you) are faced with the facts that you are now tresspassing. And if you continue tresspassing you WILL have to appear in court. This is a FACT. You may find roundaboutway of avoiding this but it is only a matter of time until some writt lands in your hand. You will live with this for the rest of your livng days. Congrats you have managed to put your life savings ( I seriosly hope you have not) into something that turns you into a fugitive. You are now one step closer to feel how the TC’s feel.
d. GC have NO other means to pursue justice other than the courts. Can you really blame them to go to ANY extend to do this? The only reason why TC’s are not pursued is simply because there is no legal framework to do that (pls see previous note TRNC being a renegate state). This is not a issue of racism. GC will go after ANYONE in order to protect their rights, including other GC’s (in fact I tink those even more).
My advice to you is to take a trip to the south to one of the refugee camps and talk to ppl. Then take a good look at what you are doing. Truly, in the name of saving a few quid what have you become?
Not the first time GCs have mentioned going after pensions, as you will recall Malcolm. Even they will realise though it would
garner them very little sympathy and not add to their case.
No they will go after a full pot not a half empty one. They
accuse us of greed but theit greed knows no limit.
Mr. Dowbroski,
We are visitors, guests if you will – but PAYING
guests nevertheless. Get your facts straight
if the TC banks do not recognise the Kocans, why
then do they hold so much land in mortgage as security
against money loaned to Turkish and Turkish Cypriot
builders on G.C. land. Post 2005 very few people
bought cheaply here – ever heard the expression
LOCATION – LOCATION – LOCATION. You do not expect
to pay South Cyprus prices because you do not get
South Cyprus infrastructure or amenities. That was part
of the attraction to a lot of people. You would not
pay as much for a house in the north as in the south in the U.K.
You all know that being in the vicinity of a good school commands a premium in the U.K. Its called market forces
so why on earth would you expect us to pay the same prices
as they do in the south here. When the facilities arrive the prices will rise.
polly.
My comment was is refference to prices between TC originally owned land vs gc originally owned land.
The original TC owned land prices are not THAT much lower than similar prices found in the south.
Contrary to that GC “trnc” land is MUCH cheaper.
I was under the impresion that TC banks do no accept the said property as collateral for the mortgage. Instead, they look for assets outside the TRNC as collateral. I may however be mistaken
More importantly, can you pls offer your (honest) opinion regarding where do you place your sense of justice in this whole issue?
I simply refuse to believe that good honest ppl (as I am sure you are) cannot see that 200K people have lost everything over night is simply wrong. These were everyday people, they werent politicians, military people, they didnt harm anyone…they were just the victims, just as so many thousand of tc’s were.
If this was your family havent lost it all on a Jul morning in 74 what would you do?
This is the heart of the matter. Everything else is justt noise….
May I call you JOHN?
Firstly for treating me with respect I
thank you.
Secondly I am afraid it is true, having
sold to and received money from, naive at worst expats, the
builders and land owners have gone onto mortgage the same land using the land
they no longer own (and if I accept your
argument)never owned as collateral with the collusion of the banks.
With regard to your other comments, all
I can say is what an awful mess we humans get ourselves into.
Main article: Modern history of Cyprus
In 1878, as the result of the Cyprus Convention, the United Kingdom took over the government of Cyprus as a protectorate from the Ottoman Empire. In 1914, at the beginning of World War I, Cyprus was annexed by the United Kingdom. In 1925, following the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, Cyprus was made a Crown Colony. Between 1955-59 EOKA was created by Greek Cypriots and led by George Grivas to perform enosis (union of the island with Greece). However the EOKA campaign did not result union with Greece but rather an independent republic, The Republic of Cyprus, in 1960.
In 1960, Turkish Cypriots were only the 18% of the Cypriot population. However, the 1960 constitution carried important safeguards for the participation of Turkish Cypriots to the state affairs, such as the vice-president being Turkish Cypriot, 30% of parliament being Turkish Cypriot, etc. Archbishop Makarios would be the President and Dr Fazil Kucuk would become Vice President. One of the articles in the constitution was the creation of separate local municipalities so that Greek and Turkish Cypriots could manage their own municipalities in the big towns. This article of the constitution was never implemented by the Republic and President Archbishop Makarios. Internal conflicts turned into full-fledged armed fighting between the two communities on the island which prompted the United Nations to send peace keeping forces in 1964; these forces are still in place today. Turkey invaded the island in 1974 and seized the northern third of the island, Turkish Cypriots in the south would travel north and Greek Cypriots in the north were forced to move to the south. The de facto state of Northern Cyprus was proclaimed in 1975 under the name “Turkish Federated State of Northern Cyprus”. The name was changed to its present form on 15 November 1983. The only country to formally recognise The “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus” is Turkey. Turkey has repeatedly violated numerous UN Resolutions[6] and refers to the Republic of Cyprus as the “Greek Cypriot Administration of Southern Cyprus”.
After the southern, Greek speaking part of Cyprus became a member of the European Union, it adopted the Euro as its currency on January 1, 2008, replacing the previously used Cypriot Pound; whilst the northern area continued to use the Turkish Lira and on January 1st 2008 the New Turkish Lira.
Cyprus entered the EU in 2004.
I assume you mean me Stelios but that goes knock
knock, hello Stelios, been expecting you, you can arrest
him now officer!!!!
At the risk of repeating myself, the bank now own the
property I thought I bought and any time you go after
them – I will cheer. Knowing repossession is imminent
I can assure you that the house is NOT being kept nice.
SORRY TO DISAPPOINT YOU STELIOS
I have no posts currently left in the spam queue and so any “lost” posts are now there. If you put muliple links in a post Akismet spam control thinks you’re spam and I have to confirm you’re not, when I have time. I have had no reason to ban anyone, if you read what has been published you’ll see that. To tell the truth, GR, I find that accusation probably one of the most unpleasant of all the comments I’ve read here. Especially because if you’re believed then some elements might use that as an excuse to attack NCFP. Hopefully people will see round your ploy.
On a lighter note, I’ve been playing with the layout of posts because of the number of comments we’re receiving. I’m considering going back to a linear listing, arranged in pages, and not nesting comments so they end up being squashed.
Dont be mean Moover, if he stops looking in the mirror
he’ll have no-one to talk to.
FOR ALL THE DUMMIES WHO THINK THEY KNOW ABOUT CYPRUS.
A rather old interview given by a T/C journalist, very relevant today only the number of settlers has increased substantially.
I drwa particular attention to this statement by the T/C journalist , dummies take note :
“”"”"”[Munir] The difference exists because honest and experienced people administer the Greek side. The Greek Cypriots are one of the most democratic and richest countries in the Mediterranean basin. The Greek administered side is one of the best prepared politically and economically of all the EU candidate countries. “”
Turkish daily Radikal (December 4 2000) reports on an interview with Metin Munir by Nese Duzel under the title “I am in Exile on the Mainland”.
In way of introduction, Duzel says: “Why Metin Munir? Turkey has announced it is ready to go it alone without the European Union and all because of the Cyprus issue. This is a decision that will affect the future of the 65 million people living in Turkey. However, these people are not in full possession of the facts when it comes to Cyprus and the wishes of the Turkish Cypriots. In the belief that by not to keeping the community fully informed on an issue that will determine its fate they are being done a great disservice, I spoke with Metin Munir, a person who knows Cyprus and Turkey very well. Metin Munir has been a journalist for 30 years now. He worked for the BBC and the Financial Times for 12 years as a correspondent and was Chief Editor of the Gunes newspaper for a year and a half in Asil Nadir’s time. Author of the book, “The Morning Incident”, Metin Munir still writes a column for Yeni Binyil and works as a consultant for CNBC-e television. Born in Cyprus in 1944, Metin Munir quit his studies at Ankara University Faculty of Political Sciences half way through and fought in the Cyprus War for two years”.Then follows the text of the interview:
“[Duzel] Turkey has implied it could break off from Europe over the Cyprus issue. It is said that Cyprus is the most important issue for Turkey. However, as far as I know from my experience, Cyprus is the topic that readers and television audiences know the least about. Programs about Cyprus are almost never watched. How can you explain this contradiction?
[Munir] In autocratic administrations, the government does not need to conform to the wishes of the people. What the government wants and what the people want are not the same. Looking at it this way, the Cyprus issue is not a matter for the Turkish people. It could well be a problem for the Turkish Government though.
[Duzel] I have very rarely seen instances in the Turkish media of Turkish Cypriots’ voices being heard when asked what it is they want. Why is it that we do not listen to the Turkish Cypriots when the issue is said to be one of vital importance for us?
[Munir] Cyprus is where you will find the most Turkish correspondents yet Cyprus is the one issue the Turkish people know least about. The reason for this incredible contradiction is the way the Turkish media practices journalism in Cyprus. They carry out journalism under state supervision. It is for this reason that you will not be able to see any news in the Turkish press that does not conform to state policy. The press takes the side that “everything Turkish governments do in Cyprus is in the best interests of the Turkish people and consequently should be supported”. Yet, the policy being guided in Cyprus is not in the interests of either the 150,000 Turkish Cypriots nor the 65 million mainland Turks. It is extremely illogical to mortgage the future of 65 million people because of a policy that is obviously of no benefit to even 150,000 people.
[Duzel] What kind of solution does Turkey want in Cyprus?
[Munir] You should really be asking, “Does Turkey want a solution on Cyprus?” In fact, Turkey does not want a solution. Turkey is pursuing the policy that “the only solution is no solution”. What Ecevit said boils down to this: “The Cyprus problem has been sorted out. The current situation is the solution.” Yet, the solution is not the current situation, that is the status quo. There are 190 countries on this planet. If 189 of them do not recognize the situation in Cyprus as a solution, do not recognize the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus [TRNC], this cannot mean a solution. You are saying, “We came, we liked it and we’re not giving it back”, but the world does not accept this.
[Duzel] From an economic perspective there is a great difference between the Greek and Turkish sides of the island. The Greek administered section is at least five times wealthier than the TRNC. Why is there such a great difference between the two communities?
[Munir] The difference exists because honest and experienced people administer the Greek side. The Greek Cypriots are one of the most democratic and richest countries in the Mediterranean basin. The Greek administered side is one of the best prepared politically and economically of all the EU candidate countries. There is just one, maybe two Articles from the Copenhagen Criteria that have yet to be fulfilled. The Greek Cypriots will be able to enter the EU come the New Year. It is best to forget the Turkish side.
[Duzel] In what way should we forget them?
[Munir] Forget preparations for membership among the Turkish Cypriots, within the TRNC government or in Denktas’s office. The agenda does not even have an article on the European Union. It does not matter who is in government in the TRNC today, they will still have to do what Turkey tells them to. Turkey is telling them they are not going to join the European Union. The Greek Cypriots on the other hand will enter the EU in 2001. Turkey could possibly join in around 2021. Turkey quite rightly does not want a second Greek veto in the European Union. Furthermore, the European Union army is being formed and will contain the Greek Cypriot army, while the Turkish army remains outside.
[Duzel] You said the reason for the different states of advancement between the southern and northern communities stems from the quality of their administrations. Yet it is always said that the Greek Cypriots receive a lot of financial aid both from the EU and Greece.
[Munir] Our people say this because they want to justify why they have not been able to do this. “Nobody recognizes us. They have put an embargo on us. This is why we are so far behind,” they say. “They get incredible amounts of aid and that is why they are so advanced.” This does not reflect the entire truth. Yes, the embargo does mean we are running this race like a packhorse among thoroughbreds, but the real reason for us lagging behind is the fact we are badly governed. When you go from the north of the island to the south, it is just like traveling from East Berlin into West Berlin. Turkey is confining itself to such a lack of solution, such mentality. Oranges used to be Cyprus’ biggest export but these days we have to import them from mainland Turkey.
[Duzel] If the famous oranges with the scent of lemons are no longer being grown on Cyprus, what is being produced there?
[Munir] Bureaucracy is being produced. Turkey gives the money and we live there. We have become a society of civil servants. Some 35,000 people get by on wages paid by Turkey. We never looked after our tangerine orchards. We killed them off. The fact that the tangerine trees have withered away has nothing to do with the embargo and everything to do with us. The Greek Cypriots formed a cooperative to export oranges. They gave cheap loans to the producers and sold the goods off at a good price. As for the cooperatives we founded, they were robbed by those that founded them. Both the cooperative and the orange growers collapsed.
[Duzel] The people invaded the TRNC Parliament this summer. Large meetings were convened. What do the Turkish Cypriots want?
[Munir] They want two things, in fact. Firstly, they want Turkish guarantees against Greek oppression to continue. Secondly, they want a solution to the Cyprus problem and to get the welfare they have. In addition, they want to join the EU.
[Duzel] So, what kind of solution do they want?
[[Munir]] The majority want a solution whereby the island becomes a twinregion federation with an international identity. This is what the world accepts but on the island what the people want and what the government wants are not the same thing. Turk or Greek, if you were to ask me not what the people want but what the governments want, I would say that only God, Denktas and Kliridhis know what the governments want because the situation is that mixed up… The documents that have accumulated over the past 40 years have doubtless become a mountain by now and the solution is lost within a heap of official paper. It is no longer clear just what is wanted and what is being said. The leaders in both the north and the south maintain an iron grip. However, peace creates its own dynamism. When there is peace, the leaders’ grip weakens. The two communities will come to live among each other over time; this is probably unstoppable.
[Duzel] An opposition journalist [for Avrupa newspaper] on Cyprus was arrested on charges of spying but later released. Is there antidemocratic oppression on Cyprus?
[Munir] The TRNC is a far more democratic country than mainland Turkey because he judicial system there is independent. This is an extraordinary chance and blessing for the Turkish Cypriots. But you know that they killed a journalist, Kutlu Adali, over there. When was the last time a journalist was killed for thinking the wrong thing in Britain or France or America I wonder?
[Duzel] Is it dangerous to oppose Ankara in Cyprus?
[Munir] It can be dangerous under certain conditions. The moment you say, “Withdraw the Turkish army from Cyprus and let the Greek and Turkish Cypriots work it out for themselves and live together,” you will have strayed from the official line. They had one person who strayed from the line killed and another thrown into prison as a spy. Yet, Turkey should not fear these thoughts because the overwhelming majority of Turkish Cypriots do not want to see the Turkish army leave. They want the problem to be solved with Turkish assurances to the effect that both peoples can live in their own regions. They believe that any solution to the problem should never jeopardize Turkey’s security. They know the price of peace will be to concede some territory to the Greeks. But above all this, one has to congratulate the army. A radical newspaper like “Avrupa” has become the highest selling paper on Cyprus saying its head writer was jailed. Its presses were burned down six days ago. Just as the people do not believe in the spying charges, nor do they believe the fire was caused by an electrical fault.
[Duzel] Why?
[Munir] Because the workers who came over from Turkey to run the presses were abducted to Turkey by “certain individuals” a short time ago with menaces.
[Duzel] Why are Turkish Cypriots getting poorer and poorer?
[Munir] Turkey sends huge amounts of money to Cyprus. Under current conditions there is no alternative to sending the money. The grave point about this is that as a result of this tremendous flow of money TRNC gives the impression it is a third world country sinking into the swamp. The money flowing into Cyprus has not improved the standard of living of the island community. TRNC has not become a rich country. Most of the money has been and is swallowed up by the elite circles there. Cyprus is being governed by people who are benefiting from the lack of a solution.
[Duzel] So are the Turkish Cypriots happy with the current situation?
[Munir] Most of them are not.
[Duzel] Do the demands of the Turkish Cypriots and those of Ankara coincide or is there a huge difference of opinion?
[Munir] Neither Denktas nor those governing Turkey want a solution but the Turkish Cypriots want one.
[Duzel] Which would the Turkish Cypriots prefer: to be part of an independent state in the European Union or to be a separate state under Turkey’s protection?
[Munir] They would prefer the first option.
[Duzel] Do Turkish Cypriots want unification with Turkey?
[Munir] No. When you say this, the people in Turkey look at you as if you are a traitor. But I do want to say this: I want to remain a Turkish Cypriot. I do not want to be a citizen of mainland Turkey. Nor do I want to be an Azeri Turk, a German Turk, a Turk resident in England or a Kazakh Turk. This is not betraying Turkey. This is a person staying as he is and leading the life he is accustomed to.
[Duzel] Have you not been able to remain a Turkish Cypriot?
[Munir] No. I have lived my life in exile. However, both I and the other Turkish Cypriots owe a debt of gratitude to Turkey we can never repay. This is mainland Turkey but for me this is exile. I always wanted to raise my children in my homeland. I am 56 years old and still obliged to live outside of Cyprus.
[Duzel] Do the Turkish Cypriots feel oppressed?
[Munir] Yes. There are 80-90,000 Turkish Cypriots there and 30-35,000 Turkish soldiers. There are 60-70,000 migrants. You cannot say we are in a country living under normal conditions.
[Duzel] Turkey looks like it does not want a solution, but I cannot for the life of me understand how the current situation on Cyprus benefits Turkey. From the diplomatic perspective, there is not a single country in the entire world recognizes TRNC. Furthermore, you remain alone at all international platforms from the EU to the UN because of this problem. From an economic perspective, Turkey is constantly sending money to Cyprus. From the military angle, because we have stationed soldiers there, the Greeks have stationed forces there too and so we have stationed a force in our West directly underneath us. Maybe there is something I am missing here but just how does this situation advantage Turkey?
[Munir] I completely agree. Turkey has locked itself into a policy that is harming it and has thrown the key out the window. Furthermore, Denktas has got destroyed the second key to the door. He cannot his past (as published). I also fought at Erenkoy. The Greeks killed by best friend. On Cyprus all of our lives are scarred and traumatized. However, it is about time a solution was found. Nobody in the world has supported Turkish foreign policy for the past 25 years. Is this not a sign that the policy needs to be changed? Of course, all these curses were created by Greek Cypriot greediness. The Greek Cypriots and Greece have sinned greatly but EU candidacy changes countries. It makes domestic policy more peaceful and civilized. Consequently we cannot tar the Greek Cypriots of today with the same brush we used to. They have changed and so has Greece.
[Duzel] Let us say that Turkey makes all these sacrifices for the sake of the Turkish Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots do not want the situation to continue. If there is no benefit to Turkey from this situation, nor to the Turkish Cypriots, just who is benefiting?
[Munir] It most benefits those selling arms to Greece and Turkey. Following the Cold War, with the exception of these two countries all the other countries of the world reduced defense spending considerably. However, Turkey today has got a $150 billion rearmament program, the biggest in the world. For this reason there is no pressure to get the Cyprus issue resolved. It just looks like there is. Had there been real pressure, the issue would have been resolved long ago.
[Duzel] Is Ankara really considering breaking away from Europe all because of Cyprus? Or is it using Cyprus as an excuse to do so?
[Munir] Cyprus is merely an excuse, a pretext. In fact, Turkey does not want to fulfill the conditions set by the EU for membership. Those governing Turkey constantly harp on about Cyprus but they know they will never get into Europe without first resolving the Cyprus issue and their problems with Greece because those are the EU’s rules. The EU says that not even the tiniest problem should exist between you and your partners and neighbors. That this is not open for debate is quite clear.
[Duzel] If the Cyprus issue is not resolved, what will the Turkish Cypriot reaction be?
[Munir] Great sadness and despair.”
http://www.atour.com/~aahgn/news/20001214e.html
YS,
I won’t tell you again! You haven’t got your own currency – you adopted one – the Euro. It’s not “yours” it “belongs” to the EU and you are just using it.
You must try to be more factual and less emotional.
Yawn…Yawn…Yannniiisss:
Thank you for your attempt at educating me. The only thing your posting shows is that despite being the age you are and with apprently worldly experience you have the common sense of a of a senile wasp on speed.
Everyone knows the importance of Turkey in the Cyprus solution – and if you had actually read rather than imagined what I have written on postings here and elewhere that would be apprent to you too. Unlike you, I don’t have to keep repeating the obvious unless it is plain for me to see that the person who is being addressed is as myopic as you are.
So let me repeat what I have said so far:
1. The only solution to the Cyprus Problem is a political solution.
2. That the guarantor powers Turkey, Greece, UK will have to play their part.
3. The EU and the USA too with the UN will and should be involved.
4. There were and are wrongs on both sides pre 1974 and post 1974.
5. It was the GC side with threw a spanner in the works in 2004 by rejecting the Annan plan.
6. The clear belief by the GCs and their government is that they want an island free of not only mainland Turks but of TCs too. They want this island to be Greek!
7. Possession is and has always been 9/10ths of the law. Going to the ECJ, the Royal Courts in the UK may serve short term political interests but will likely damage long term peace and security.
8. That no matter how many judgement you obtain you will NEVER outside of a political settlement get any of the alleged GC land.
9. Don’t be so naive or should that be ‘senile’ to believe that either side has forgotten the attocities committed in the 1960′s and 1970′s. The TCs and GCs have no love lost for each other and no matter whether Turkey or Grece stepped back – the likely outcome would be yet more bloodshd if there is not a POLITICAL SOLUTION.
10. Of course I do not doubt that you have called for a ‘political solution’ before me. After all you are a good 3 decades or more older than me – so it would not be surprising if that were to be the case
11.If my knowledge of the Cyprus problem is limited – then your perspective of it is ‘myopic’ at best. Read some of your own postings and you will see, outside of name calling, you have really not much else to add of any real positive value.
12. If the parties reach an agreement – there will be a referendum – and in the light of the pathetic GC attitude there is a ground swell of TC opinion (85%+) to tell the Greeks to go where it seems carnally they enjoy going – you know where the sun doesn’t shine! I am sure being the age you are you will know exactly what I mean from experience
Yes, I agree in the end justice will prevail but it will be a justice brought about through negotiations and political good will NOT through courts and media bully tactics.
The upshot, no matter how you slice the present cake is this:
“Possession is and has always been 9/10ths of the law”.
Now tell me how do you believe Mr A will come and take his land now that the Oramses have vacated it? Will Mr A arrive on a JCB with the GC army in tail and you riding gunshot in a side car? Unlikely. Too many Turkish soldiers who booted your arse in 1974 and from which you are still smarting. They stopped what would otherwise have been a genocide of the TCs by you and your own.
So, here’s hoping that you slept well – and that your dreams of getting your alleged land back in the TRNC will be exactly that – A DREAM – unless the GC are prepared to negotiate in good faith something they sigularly failed to do in 2004
Enjoy
Background
The United Kingdom had promised Greece that all the above would be a commitment to be fulfilled if Greece would enter World War I on the side of the Allies; the offer was withdrawn when Greece declined.[5] EOKA engaged to free the Greek Cypriots from British rule. The leadership of AKEL at the time (a political party with communist roots), opposed EOKA’s military action, advocating the Gandhiesque approach of civil disobedience such as workers’ strikes and demonstrations.[6] This came into direct contrast with the previous leadership who some 5 years ago had organised the plebiscite of 1950, where the vast majority of all Greek-Cypriots who voted were for the union with Greece (98%). This was organised by the Church and there are reports that the threat of excommunication was used to encourage voting for enosis.[citation needed].
[edit] Ideology
Oath of The Youth Organisation of EOKA
——————————————————————————–
I swear in the name of the Holy Trinity that:
I shall work with all my power for the liberation of Cyprus from the British yoke, sacrificing for this even my life.
I shall perform without question all the instructions of the organisation which may be entrusted to me and I shall not bring any objection, however difficult and dangerous these may be.
I shall not abandon the struggle unless I receive instructions from the leader of the organisation and after our aim has been accomplished.
I shall never reveal to anyone any secret of our organisation neither the names of my chiefs nor those of the other members of the organization even if I am caught and tortured.
I shall not reveal any of the instructions which may be given me even to my fellow combatants.
If I disobey my oath I shall be worthy of every punishment as a traitor and may eternal contempt cover me.
Signed
EOKA
——————————————————————————–
—in Bitter Lemons, by Lawrence Durrell[7]
EOKA was a right wing nationalistic organisation with the ultimate goal of “The liberation of Cyprus from the British yoke”. Although not stated in its initial declaration of existence which was printed and distributed on the 1st of April 1955, EOKA also had a target of achieving enosis (union of Cyprus with Greece). However, although this ideology reflected in its members (and chiefly its military leader George Grivas) throughout the armed campaign, it was not of universal acceptance. However the head of the political arm of EOKA, Makarios, took a more compromising approach especially during the later stages of the struggle.
Ultimately, the intents of the struggle were political, not military. EOKA wanted to attract the attention of the world through high profile operations that would make the press headlines.[8] In his memoirs Grivas admits to “by deeds of heroism and self sacrifice to draw the attention of international public opinion, especially among the allies of Greece”.[9]
[edit] Armed campaign
The first declaration made by EOKA, distributed in April 1955 outlining their raison d’être. See below for English translation.The first declaration made by EOKA, distributed in April 1955. (Words in capitals kept as such)
——————————————————————————–
EOKA
ANNOUNCEMENT
With God’s help, with faith in the righteousness of our struggle, with the aid of all Hellenism
WE HEREBY TAKE ON THE STRUGGLE TO RID US (Cyprus) OF THE BRITISH YOKE.
With the sacred motto left upon us by our ancestors “EITHER WITH IT, OR ON IT”
CYPRIOT BROTHERS, From the depths of the centuries we are watched by all those who shone upon Greek history to maintain our freedom, those who fought in Marathon, in Salamis, the 300 of Leonidas and those who more recently fought in the Albanian epoch. We are watched by the fighters of ‘21, who taught us that liberation from an occupier always comes through BLOOD. We are also watched by the rest of Hellenism with anticipation, but also with national pride.
Let us respond with deeds, that we “will better” them.
The time has come to show the world that if international diplomacy is UNFAIR and PUSILLANIMOUS, the Cypriot psyche is brave and if the powers that be do not want to grant us our freedom, we will claim it with our own HANDS AND BLOOD.
Let us show the world once more that a Greek’s neck will not tolerate the yoke. The struggle will be hard; the occupier has the means and the numbers.
However, we have the SOUL, and JUSTICE on our side. And that is why we shall be VICTORIOUS.
GOBAL ENVOYS,
Take a look at your own actions. It is a disgrace in the 20th century for a nation to have to shed blood to gain its freedom, the holy gift for which we fought on your side and for which you yourselves claim to have fought against Nazism and Fascism.
HELLENES,
Wherever you are, hear our voice:
GO FORTH, ALL UNITED FOR THE LIBERATION OF OUR CYPRUS…..
E.O.K.A.
THE COMMANDER
D I G E N I S
——————————————————————————–
—direct translation from the original document released by EOKA
The military campaign officially began on April 1, 1955. On this date EOKA launched simultaneous attacks on the British controlled Cyprus Broadcasting Station in Nicosia (led by Markos Drakos), on the British Army’s Wolseley barracks and on targets in Famagusta (led by Grigoris Afxentiou). Thereafter and unlike other anti colonial movements, EOKA confined its acts to sabotaging military installations, ambushing military convoys and patrols, and assassinating British soldiers and local informers. It did not attempt to control any territory, a tactic that according to Grivas would not have suited the terrain and size of Cyprus nor the imbalance of EOKA’s conventional military capabilities with respect to the British Army.[10]
[edit] Formation and Structure
The organisation was headed by George Grivas. Grivas had rich military experience having been educated at the Hellenic Military Academy, having served as an officer in the Greek army and having fought for Greece in both World Wars. In terms of ideology, of particular relevance was his action during the Hellenic Civil War where he led Organisation X, a right wing faction charged with opposing the leftist group ELAS [11]. Grivas assumed the nom de guerre Digenis in reference to the Byzantine Digenis Akritas, who repelled invaders from the Byzantine Empire during the Middle Ages.
Second in command was Grigoris Afxentiou who had also served in the Greek army. Afxentiou had graduated from the reserves Officers Academy in 1950 but had no prior experience in active military operations.
Recruitment of members was targeted at the younger population. The conditions for a mass uprising as witnessed in other colonial conflicts did not exist in Cyprus. There were no fundamental economic problems nor was there widespread poverty or food shortage.[12] The working class was largely allied to the left wing party of AKEL which did not openly support an armed struggle. Cyprus’ privileged geographical position allowed the middle class to prosper through international trade, activities that were openly encouraged by the British administration. As a result EOKA’s leadership directed recruitment to the “passionate youth”.[9]
At the peak of the conflict EOKA guerillas numbered 1,250 members (250 regulars plus 1,000 active underground). They faced British security forces totalling 40,000 (32,000 regulars plus 8,000 auxiliaries).[1] It was clandestinely supported by the Greek Government in the form of arms, money and propaganda on radio stations broadcast from Athens. The cost of running the campaign was reported to be only GBP £50,000 (US $140,000) for the whole 4 years.[1]
[edit] Targets
[edit] British Military
EOKA’s main target as stated both in its initiation oath and its initial declaration of existence was the British military. In total during the campaign EOKA engaged in 1,144 armed clashes with the British Army. About 53% of clashes took place in urban areas, whilst the rest (47%) took place in rural areas.[8]
During the course of the insurrection a total of 105 [13] British servicemen were killed and 51 members of the police.[14]
[edit] Others
Apart from the British military, EOKA also targeted civilian installations on the island as well as Greek and Turkish Cypriot civilian individuals judged to be working against their cause.
[edit] Greek Cypriots
Greek Cypriots suspected of being allied to the colonial forces and those believed to be informants were targeted, sometimes with severe brutality. Although the number of operations launched against Greek Cypriots were far less than those against the British military, they were much more efficient. In total 230 assassination attempts were attributed to EOKA action. Of these only 13 targets escaped unharmed, whilst 148 Greek Cypriots were killed and 69 were wounded.[8]
Amongst the 148 killings, 23 were of known leftists. After the end of the struggle there has been debate whether EOKA was also used to target individuals on the basis of their political affiliations, in particular if they did not correspond to Grivas’ extreme right ideology. The communist party of AKEL and EOKA veteran fighters have both been outspoken on this issue.[15][16]
[edit] Turkish Cypriots
One of the first actions of Field Marshal Sir John Harding, the newly appointed governor of Cyprus in 1955, was to expand the numbers of auxiliary Cyprus Police. This was achieved by disproportionate recruitment from the Turkish-Cypriot community an action that went against the advice of experienced colonial officials who knew that over-reliance upon a Turkish police force would alarm the Greek Cypriot population and likely lead to open conflict between the island’s ethnic communities [17] A new separate ‘Special Mobile Reserve’ unit was created exclusively recruited from the Turkish community.[17] Although EOKA’s primary targets were British interests, Cypriots of Turkish decent, especially those serving the colonial security forces soon became targets.[17]
Communal violence, rare in Cyprus before the insurgency, flared up in 1956 and increased throughout EOKA’s campaign.[17] In 1957 the Turkish Resistance Organization (TMT) came into existence, a rival paramilitary organisation serving Turkish interests. Although infrequent, EOKA and TMT targeted each others members with ferocity. In the worst period of such violence, in 1958, EOKA killed 55 Turkish Cypriots whilst TMT killed 60 Greeks.[18]
On the 16 June 1956, the bombing of a restaurant by EOKA led to the death of William P. Boteler, a CIA officer working under diplomatic cover. Colonel Grivas immediately issued a statement denying a deliberate attempt to target American citizens. He further warned American officials, for their own safety, to avoid the establishments patronized by “our British enemy.”[19]
In October 1956 an EOKA leader, Pilots Christof], was captured during Operation Sparrowhawk. The following year, Grigoris Afxentiou burned to death in the Battle of Machairas[10]. A number of other Greek fighters were hanged, including the 18-year old, Evagoras Pallikarides.[20]
EOKA’s activity continued until December 1959 when a cease-fire was declared which paved the way for the Zürich agreement on the future of the country.
The EOKA aim to rid Cyprus of British rule was partially met when on 16 August 1960 Cyprus achieved independence from the United Kingdom with the exception of two “Sovereign Base Areas” (SBA) at Akrotiri and Dhekelia. The settlement explicitly denied enosis – the union with Greece sought by EOKA. Although Cyprus gained its independence, it came with a complex constitution and the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee – a security arrangement compromising of a three-way guaranteeship from Turkey, Greece and Britain that neither would annex the independent republic. (see History of Cyprus).
Don,t be so small minded , the Euro IS OUR OWN currency .
Adopted from mother Europe of which we are now a part of.
Plonker you are and plonker you will remain!
Moover,
Teasing an old man is wicked and you should be ashamed of yourself. Apart from which, that’s my job!
Do you truly believe that if it becomes
politically expedient to sell us all
down the river, it wont happen. When did any government live up to its promises. Whatever the outcome, and I
really dont think there will be one in
the near future, it will be a political
solution and like it or not, we will ALL
have to learn to live with it.
@J.Dobrowski
Thank god for a reasonable man in this blog..
Sorry YS,
At the risk of being small minded, but correct, I can tell you that ownership is the state or fact of exclusive rights and control over property, which may be an object, land/real estate or intellectual property.
The Euro is an object, and you don’t have exclusive rights to it. It is the currency of the whole EU, not just Cyprus. They OWN it, not you. It is not YOUR OWN.
NOW YOU HAVE A CASE FOR CENSORSHIP.
Theyre coming to take him away haha
Aietus are you sure you can walk on two legs – sounds like you should be crawling on your belly. You are a racist bully and I
am not sure your should be let out on your own. Whilst there are
vicious animals like you on the loose, I think all humans or
whatever nationality should be afraid – be very afraid.
DOCUMENTS RELATING TO THE FOUNDING OF CYPRUS, INCLUDING THE TREATY OF GUARANTEE, 1959
[From Documents on International Affairs 1959 edited by Gillian King Oxford University Press, London, 1963]
1. DOCUMENTS REGARDING CYPRUS SIGNED AND INITIALLED AT LANCASTER HOUSE, LONDON, FEBRUARY 19, 1959 1
Back to the Top
Basic Structure of the Republic of Cyprus
Treaty of Guarantee between the Republic of Cyprus and Greece, the United Kingdom and Turkey
Treaty of Alliance between the Republic of Cyprus, Greece and Turkey
Declaration by the Government of the United Kingdom, 11 February
Additional article to be inserted in the Treaty of Guarantee
Back to the Top
(A) BASIC STRUCTURE OF THE REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS
The State of Cyprus shall be a Republic with a presidential regime, the President being Greek and the Vice-President Turkish elected by universal suffrage by the Greek and Turkish communities of the Island respectively.
The official languages of the Republic of Cyprus shall be Greek and Turkish. Legislative and administrative instruments and documents shall be drawn up and promulgated in the two official languages.
The Republic of Cyprus shall have its own flag of neutral design and colour, chosen jointly by the President and the Vice-President of the Republic. Authorities and communities shall have the right to fly the Greek and Turkish flags on holidays at the same time as the flag of Cyprus.
The Greek and Turkish communities shall have the right to celebrate Greek and Turkish national holidays.
The President and the Vice-President shall be elected for a period of five years.
In the event of absence, impediment or vacancy of their posts, the President and the Vice-President shall be replaced by the President and the Vice-President of the House of Representatives respectively.
In the event of a vacancy in either post, the election of new incumbents shall take place within a period of not more than 45 days.
The President and the Vice-President shall be invested by the House of Representatives, before which they shall take an oath of loyalty and respect for the Constitution. For this purpose, the House of Representatives shall meet within 24 hours after its constitution.
Executive authority shall be vested in the President and the Vice-President. For this purpose they shall have a Council of Ministers composed of seven Greek Ministers and three Turkish Ministers. The Ministers shall be designated respectively by the President and the Vice-President who shall appoint them by an instrument signed by them both.
The Ministers may be chosen from outside the House of Representatives.
Decisions of the Council of Ministers shall be taken by an absolute majority.
Decisions so taken shall be promulgated immediately by the President and the Vice-President by publication in the official gazette.
However, the President and the Vice-President shall have the right of final veto and the right to return the decisions of the Council of Ministers under the same conditions as those laid down for laws and decisions of the House Of Representatives.
Legislative authority shall be vested in a House of Representatives elected for a period of five years by universal suffrage of each community separately In the proportion of 70 per cent for the Greek community and 30 per cent for the Turkish community, this proportion being fixed independently of statistical data. (N.B.-The number of Representatives shall be fixed by mutual agreement between the communities. )
The House of Representatives shall exercise authority in all matters other than those expressly reserved to the Communal Chambers. In the event of a conflict of authority, such conflict shall be decided by the Supreme Constitutional Court which shall be composed of one Greek, one Turk and one neutral, appointed jointly by the President and the Vice-President. The neutral judge shall be president of the Court.
Laws and decisions of the House of Representatives shall be adopted by a simple majority of the members present. They shall be promulgated within 15 days if neither the President nor the Vice-President returns them for reconsideration as provided in Point 9 below. The Constitutional Law, with the exception of its basic articles, may be modified by a majority comprising two-thirds of the Greek members and two-thirds of the Turkish members of the House of Representatives. Any modification of the electoral law and the adoption of any law relating to the municipalities and of any law imposing duties or taxes shall require a simple majority of the Greek and Turkish members of the House of Representatives taking part in the vote and considered separately. On the adoption of the budget, the President and the Vice-President may exercise their right to return it to the House of Representatives, if in their judgment any question of discrimination arises. If the House maintains its decisions, the President and the Vice-President shall have the right of appeal to the Supreme Constitutional Court.
The President and the Vice-President, separately and conjointly shall have the right of final veto on any law or decision concerning foreign affairs, except the participation of the Republic of Cyprus in international organisations and pacts of alliance in which Greece and Turkey both participate, or concerning defence and security as defined in Annex I.
The President and the Vice-President of the Republic shall have. separately and conjointly, the right to return all laws and decisions. which may be returned to the House of Representatives within a period of not more than 15 days for reconsideration. The House of Representatives shall pronounce within 15 days on any matter so returned. If the House of Representatives maintains its decisions, the President ,and the Vice-President shall promulgate the law or decision in question within the time-limits fixed for the promulgation of laws and decisions. Laws and decisions, which are considered by the President or the Vice-President to discriminate against either of the two communities, shall be submitted to the Supreme Constitutional Court which may annul or confirm the law or decision, or return it to the House of Representatives for reconsideration, in whole or in part. The law or decision shall not become effective until the Supreme Constitutional Court or, where it has been returned, the House of Representatives has taken a decision on it.
Each community shall have its Communal Chamber composed of a number of representatives which it shall itself determine. The Communal Chambers shall have the right to impose taxes and levies on members of their community to provide for their needs and for the needs of bodies and institutions under their supervision. The Communal Chambers shall exercise authority in all religious, educational, cultural and teaching questions and questions of personal status. They shall exercise authority in questions where the interests and institutions are of a purely communal nature, such as sporting and charitable foundations, bodies and associations, producers’ and consumers’ co-operatives and credit establishments, created for the purpose of promoting the welfare of one of the communities. (N.B.-It is understood that the provisions of the present paragraph cannot be interpreted in such a way as to prevent the creation of mixed and communal institutions where the inhabitants desire them. ) These producers’ and consumers’ co-operatives and credit establishments, which shall be administered under the laws of the Republic, shall be subject to the supervision of the Communal Chambers. The Communal Chambers shall also exercise authority in matters initiated by municipalities which are composed of one community only. These municipalities, to which the laws of the Republic shall apply, shall be supervised in their functions by the Communal Chambers. Where the central administration is obliged to take over the supervision of the institutions, establishments, or municipalities mentioned in the two preceding paragraphs by virtue of legislation in force, this supervision shall be exercised by officials belonging to the same community as the institution, establishment or municipality in question.
The Civil Service shall be composed as to 70 per cent. of Greeks and as to 30 per cent. of Turks. It is understood that this quantitative division will be applied as far as practicable in all grades of the Civil Service. In regions or localities where one of the two communities is in a majority approaching 100 per cent., the organs of the local administration responsible to the central administration shall be composed solely of officials belonging to that community.
The deputies of the Attorney-General of the Republic, the Inspector General, the Treasurer and the Governor of the Issuing Bank may not belong to the same community as their principals. The holders of these posts shall be appointed by the President and the Vice-President of the Republic acting in agreement.
The heads and deputy heads of the Armed Forces, the Gendarmerie and the Police shall be appointed by the President and the Vice-President of the Republic acting in agreement. One of these heads shall be Turkish and where the head belongs to one of the communities, the deputy head shall belong to the other.
Compulsory military service may only be instituted with the agreement of the President and the Vice-President of the Republic of Cyprus. Cyprus shall have an army of 2,000 men, of whom 60 per cent. shall be Greek and 40 per cent. Turkish. The security forces (gendarmerie and police) shall have a complement of 2,000 men, which may be reduced or increased with the agreement of both the President and the Vice-President. The security forces shall be composed as to 70 per cent. of Greeks and as to 30 per cent. of Turks. However, for an initial period this percentage may be raised to a maximum of 40 per cent. of Turks (and consequently reduced to 60 per cent. of Greeks) in order not to discharge those Turks now serving in the police, apart from the auxiliary police.
Forces, which are stationed in parts of the territory of the Republic inhabited, in a proportion approaching 100 per cent., by members of a single community, shall belong to that community.
A High Court of Justice shall be established, which shall consist of two Greeks, one Turk and one neutral, nominated jointly by the President and the Vice-President of the Republic. The President of the Court shall be the neutral judge, who shall have two votes. This Court shall constitute the highest organ of the judicature (appointments, promotions of judges, &c.) .
Civil disputes, where the plaintiff and the defendant belong to the same community, shall be tried by a tribunal composed of judges belonging to that community. If the plaintiff and defendant belong to different communities, the composition of the tribunal shall be mixed and shall be determined by the High Court of Justice.
Tribunals dealing with civil disputes relating to questions of personal status and to religious matters which are reserved to the competence of the Communal Chambers under Point 10, shall be composed solely of judges belonging to the community concerned. The composition and status of these tribunals shall be determined according to the law drawn up by the Communal Chamber and they shall apply the law drawn up by the Communal Chamber.
In criminal cases, the tribunal shall consist of judges belonging to the same community as the accused. If the injured party belongs to another community, the composition of the tribunal shall be mixed and shall be determined by the High Court of Justice.
The President and the Vice-President of the Republic shall each have the right to exercise the prerogative of mercy to persons from their respective communities who are condemned to death. In cases where the plaintiffs and the convicted persons are members of different communities the prerogative of mercy shall be exercised by agreement between the President and the Vice-President. In the event of disagreement the vote for clemency shall prevail. When mercy is accorded the death penalty shall be commuted to life imprisonment.
In the event of agricultural reform, lands shall be redistributed only to persons who are members of the same community as the expropriated owners.
Expropriations by the State or the Municipalities shall only be carried out on payment of a just and equitable indemnity fixed, in disputed cases, by the tribunals. An appeal to the tribunals shall have the effect of suspending action.
Expropriated property shall only be used for the purpose for which the expropriation was made. Otherwise the property shall be restored to the owners.
Separate municipalities shall be created in the five largest towns of Cyprus by the Turkish inhabitants of these towns. However:-
(a) In each of the towns a co-ordinating body shall be set up which shall supervise work which needs to be carried out jointly and shall concern itself with matters which require a degree of co-operation. These bodies shall each be composed of two members chosen by the Greek municipalities, two members chosen by the Turkish municipalities and a President chosen by agreement between the two municipalities.
(b) The President and the Vice-President shall examine within four years the question whether or not this separation of municipalities in the five largest towns shall continue. With regard to other localities, special arrangements shall be made for the constitution of municipal bodies, following, as far as possible, the rule of proportional representation for the two communities.
A treaty guaranteeing the independence, territorial integrity and constitution of the new State of Cyprus shall be concluded between the Republic of Cyprus, Greece, the United Kingdom and Turkey. A Treaty of military alliance shall also be concluded between the Republic of Cyprus, Greece and Turkey. These two instruments shall have constitutional force. (This last paragraph shall be inserted in the Constitution as a basic article.)
It shall be recognised that the total or partial union of Cyprus with any other State, or a separatist independence for Cyprus (i.e., the partition of Cyprus into two independent States) , shall be excluded.
The Republic Of Cyprus shall accord most-favoured-nation treatment to Great Britain, Greece and Turkey for all agreements whatever their nature. This provision shall not apply to the Treaties between the Republic of Cyprus and the United Kingdom concerning the bases and military facilities accorded to the United Kingdom.
The Greek and Turkish Governments shall have the right to subsidise institutions for education, culture, athletics and charity belonging to their respective communities. Equally, where either community considers that it has not the necessary number of schoolmasters. professors or priests for the working of its institutions, the Greek and Turkish Governments may provide them to the extent strictly necessary to meet their needs.
One of the following Ministries-the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry of Defence or the Ministry, of Finance-shall be entrusted to a Turk. If the President and the 5′ice-President agree they may replace this system by a system of rotation.
The new State which is to come into being with the signature of the Treaties shall be established as quickly as possible and within a period of not more than three months from the signature of the Treaties.
All the above Points shall be considered to be basic articles of the Constitution of Cyprus.
E. A. -T. F. R. Z.
S. L.
A. M. F. K.
ANNEX I
A The defence questions subject to veto under Point 8 of the Basic Structure are as follows:-
(a) Composition and size of the armed forces and credits for them.
(b) Appointments and promotions.
(c) Imports of warlike stores and of all kinds of explosives.
(d) Granting of bases and other facilities to allied countries.
The Security questions subject to veto are as follows:
(a) Appointments and promotions.
(b) Allocation and stationing of forces.
(c) Emergency measures and martial law.
(d) Police laws. (It is provided that the right of veto shall cover all emergency measures or decisions, but not those which concern the normal functioning of the police and gendarmerie. )
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(b) Treaty of Guarantee between the Republic of Cyprus and Greece, the United Kingdom and Turkey
The Republic of Cyprus of the one part, and Greece, the United Kingdom and Turkey of the other part:-
I. Considering that the recognition and maintenance of the independence, territorial integrity and security of the Republic of Cyprus, as established and regulated by the basic articles of its Constitution, are in their common interest;
II. Desiring to co-operate to ensure that the provisions of the aforesaid Constitution shall be respected:
Have agreed as follows:
ARTICLE 1
The Republic of Cyprus undertakes to ensure the maintenance of its independence, territorial integrity and security, as well as respect for its Constitution. It undertakes not to participate, in whole or in part, in any political or economic union with any State whatsoever. With this intent it prohibits all activity tending to promote directly or indirectly either union or partition of the Island. ARTICLE 2
Greece the United Kingdom and Turkey, taking note of the undertakings by the Republic of Cyprus embodied in Article 1, recognize and guarantee the independence, territorial integrity and security of the Republic of Cyprus, and also the provisions of the basic articles of its Constitution. They likewise undertake to prohibit, as far as lies within their power, all activity having the object of promoting directly or indirectly either the union of the Republic of Cyprus with any other State, or the partition of the Island.
ARTICLE 3
In the event of any breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, the United Kingdom, and Turkey undertake to consult together, with a view to making representations, or taking the necessary steps to ensure observance of those provisions. In so far as common or concerted action may prove impossible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim Of re-establishing the state of affairs established by the present Treaty.
ARTICLE 4
The present Treaty shall enter into force on signature. The High Contracting Parties undertake to register the present Treaty at the earliest possible date with the Secretariat of the United Nations, in accordance vith the provisions of Article 102 of the Chapter.
E. A. -T. F. R. Z.
S. L.
A. M. F. K.
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(c) Treaty of Alliance between the Republic of Cyprus, Greece and Turkey
The Republic of Cyprus, Greece and Turkey shall co-operate for their common defence and undertake by this Treaty to consult together on the problems raised by this defence.
The High Contracting Parties undertake to resist any attack or aggression, direct or indirect, directed against the independence and territorial integrity of the Republic of Cyprus.
In the spirit of this alliance and in order to fulfill the above purpose a tripartite Headquarters shall be established on the territory of the Republic Of Cyprus.
Greece shall take part in the Headquarters mentioned in the preceding article with a contingent of 950 officers, non-commissioned officers and soldiers and Turkey with a contingent of 650 officers, non-commissioned officers and soldiers. The President and the Vice-President of the Republic of Cyprus, acting in agreement, may ask the Greek and Turkish Governments to increase or reduce the Greek and Turkish contingents.
The Greek and Turkish officers mentioned above shall be responsible for the training of the Army of the Republic of Cyprus.
The command of the tripartite Headquarters shall be assumed in rotation and for a period of one year each by a Cypriot, Greek and Turkish General Officer, who shall be nominated by the Governments of Greece and Turkey and by the President and the Vice-President of the Republic of Cyprus.
E. A. -T. F. R. Z.
S. L.
A. M. F. K.
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(d) Declaration by the Government of the United Kingdom, 11 February
DECLARATION BY THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM
The Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, having examined the documents concerning the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus, comprising the Basic Structure for the Republic of Cyprus the Treaty of Guarantee and the Treaty of Alliance, drawn up and approved by the Heads of the Governments of Greece and Turkey in Zurich on February 11, 1969, and taking into account the consultations in London, from February 11 to 16, 1969, between the Foreign Ministers of Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom
Declare:
A. That, subject to the acceptance of their requirements as set out in Section B below, they accept the documents approved by the Heads of the Governments of Greece and Turkey as the agreed foundation for the final settlement of the problem of Cyprus.
B. That, with the exception of two areas at
(a) Akrotiri-Episkopi-Parmali, and
(b) Dhekelia-Pergamos-Ayios Nikolaos-Xylophagou, which will be retained under full British sovereignty, they are willing to transfer sovereignty over the Island of Cyprus to the Republic of Cyprus subject to the following e conditions:-
that such rights are secured to the United Kingdom Government as are necessary to enable the two areas as aforesaid to be used effectively as military bases, including among others those rights indicated in the Annex attached, and that satisfactory guarantees are given by Greece, Turkey and the Republic of Cyprus for the integrity of the areas retained under British sovereignty and the use and enjoyment by the United Kingdom of the rights referred to above;
that provision shall be made by agreement for:-
(i) the protection of the fundamental human rights of the various communities in Cyprus;
(ii) the protection of the interests of the members of the public services in Cyprus;
(iii) determining the nationality of persons affected by the settlement;
(iv) the assumption by the Republic of Cyprus of the appropriate obligations of the present Government of Cyprus, including the settlement of claims.
C. That the Government of the United Kingdom welcome the draft Treaty of Alliance between the Republic of Cyprus, the Kingdom of Greece and the Republic of Turkey and will co-operate with the Parties thereto in the common defence of Cyprus.
D. That the Constitution of the Republic of Cyprus shall come into force and the formal signature of the necessary instruments by the parties concerned shall take place at the earliest practicable date and on that date sovereignty will be transferred to the Republic of Cyprus.
SELWYN LLOYD.
ALAN LENNOX-BOYD.
E. A. -T.
A. M. F. K. F. R. Z.
ANNEX
The following rights will be necessary in connexion with the areas to be retained under British sovereignty:-
(a) to continue to use, without restriction or interference, the existing small sites containing military and other installations and to exercise complete control within these sites, including the right to guard and defend them and to exclude from them all persons not authorised by the united Kingdom Government
(b) to use roads, ports and other facilities freely for the movement of personnel and stores of all kinds to and from and between the abovementioned areas and sites
(c) to continue to have the use of specified port facilities at Famagusta;
(d) to use public services (such as water, telephone, telegraph, electric power, etc.);
(e) to use from time to time certain localities, which would be specified, for troop training;
(f) to use the airfield at Nicosia, together with any necessary buildings and facilities on or connected with the airfield to whatever extent is considered necessary by the British authorities for the operation of British military aircraft in peace and war, including the exercise of any necessary operational control of air traffic;
(g) to overfly the territory of the Republic of Cyprus without restriction;
(h) to exercise jurisdiction over British forces to an extent comparable with that provided in Article VII of the Agreement regarding the Status of Forces of Parties to the North Atlantic Treaty, in respect of certain offenses committed within the territory of the Republic of Cyprus:
(i) to employ freely in the areas and sites labour from other parts of Cyprus;
(j) to obtain, after consultation with the Government of the Republic Of Cyprus, the use of such additional small sites and such additional rights as the United Kingdom may, from time to time, consider technically necessary for the efficient use of its base areas and installations in Cyprus.
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(e) Additional article to be inserted in the Treaty of Guarantee
The Kingdom of Greece, the Republic of Turkey and the Republic of Cyprus undertake to respect the integrity of the areas to be retained under the sovereignty of the United Kingdom upon the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus, and guarantee the use and enjoyment by the United Kingdom of the rights to be secured to the United Kingdom by the Republic of Cyprus in accordance with the declaration by the Government of the United Kingdom.
S. L. E. A. -T. F. R. Z.
A. M. F. K.
——————————————————————————–
1 The agreement on Cyprus was aproved by the Greek Parliament on 28 February, by 170 votes to 118 by the Turkish Parliament on 4 March, by 347 votes to 139 with 2 abstentions, and by the House of Commons on 19 March with no division, after an opposition amendment criticising the Government’s policy since 1954, had been defeated by 299 votes to 246. On 10 November 1959 agreement wns reached on the question of executive authority in the new constitution. On 13 December Archbishop Makarios was elected first President of the future republic ot Cyprus, he received 70 per cent of the votes. The state of emergency on the island ended on 4 December 1959.
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VW:
Sorry to have trespassed…teasing ‘an old man’ is your domain – maybe you’ll sue me in the ECJ?
Enjoy
Vaughan and Moover
Now I know I left the job in capable hands just be careful
when he invites you for a drink – he doesnt handle rejection
too well.
“We all know that even with the Annan plan if we had voted yes Turkey would had failed to comply with its own part of the agreement…” So are you saying you wouldn’t vote for a solution now because you think the above still applies? If so, what’s the point of continuing the talks?
JD:
I see ignnorance follows the weak minded
(a) I am what I am and my status is none of your busienss. Calling me a guest is your assumption, nothing more, nothing less!
(b)You assumption(s) is / are wrong – but then mostly so are your ‘alleged’ facts. Let’s move on. The TRNC is not the De Jure recognised authority – but it is the De Facto authority. Maybe you would do better by actually understanding something about international law rather than spouting the ignorance which appears to trip off your fingers without passing through the grey matter!
(c)I am not trespassing and if I appeared in court it will be for a very different reason – perhaps you should look to the laws of defamation as a clue!
(d)GCs have no other means to pursue their claims. Now I see your ignorance of both the Cyprus problem and the peace process is complete. The point you ought to consider is this: Every legal case taken through the EU courts produces what for the alleged GC owners? Nothing! Possession is 9/10ths of the law. The way forward for BOTH GCS and TCs is a POLITICAL SETTLEMENT. You ought to spend less time throwing stones at people in the know and more time in educating yourself about the options open to GCs and TCs. The 2004 Annan plan was considered by many independent obeservers as fair. Of course not by the GCs who voted against it. To say the GCs have no option is tantamount to say that you have absolutely no idea of the history of Cyprus which going by your statements is obviously true!
I have been to the south many, many times and spoken to more people than you would have me introduced to.
All that I have asserted here and eleswhere is this simple statement that even you perhaps would comprehend.
Possession is 9/10ths of the law. The GCs can get 1000′s of judgements but if the TRNC refuses to accept them what is the outcome? Even you can answer that…
The ONLY way forward is a NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT – and this means BOTH sides giving ground – litterally and figuratively!
Now exactly which part of what I have said do you find difficult to understand? Or is it that your likely bias for the GCs is colouring your judgement?
Truly in the name of your prejudice what have you become? A spokesperson for more killing? More potential genocide? Can you honestly see the 1000′s of TCs being turfed out of their current homes in Girne for example to accommodate GCs? Somehow I do not see it – and the truth is neither do the GC politicians and their backers!
This case is POLITICAL – designed to put pressure on the TRNC at the negotiating table – the sooner you wake up and smell the coffee of ‘real politik’ the better
Enjoy
Lennythelion, a single link would have sufficed!
Here is an excellent article in the UK’s Guardian newspaper, it is written by Simon Tisdall, “in Kyrenia, northern Cyprus ”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/26/turkish-cypriot-separatism-greece-un
ARTICLE 1
The Republic of Cyprus undertakes to ensure the maintenance of its independence, territorial integrity and security, as well as respect for its Constitution. It undertakes not to participate, in whole or in part, in any political or economic union with any State whatsoever. With this intent it prohibits all activity tending to promote directly or indirectly either union or partition of the Island.
This is active and European Law is in Breach of this Treaty
Malcolm,
Is it not possible to keep morons like “Aietus.S” off the site?
We really don’t need to put up with garbage like that.
I’ve just noticed Newbury in UK based “Aietus.S””s murder threat, and so I’m issuing him with ONE warning, if he makes such a threat again then I will have no alternative but to remove comments with similar threats. I will leave this comment so that any GCs who wonder why this commenter has been removed can see the reason is legal, not censorship. I believe they will agree with this action, though.
I condemn your post vehemently. As a G/C I find your comments violent and disgustingly obscene
Thats a bit O/T He Must Be Upset ???????
Thank you, Yiannis, GCs may disagree with posters on many issues here but common decency is not one of them.
I did try to draw your attention to the lunatic in post
2929 and 2930. He is a lunatic and I am pleased his fellow
countrymen see this too. Yes we all get a little heated, but
it is attitudes like his that caused this problem in the first
place.
Peaceful negotiations leading to a political solution is the
only answer.
Aietus if the British police knew what you were posting, I think you might have your collar felt. Preaching racial hatred is a crime. I think you would have been right at home with Hitlers
brownshirts.
A recent UK court case found guilty and imprisoned a man who on Twitter had jokingly threatened to bomb an airport if his plane was late. You can never be too careful what you allowed to be published online because, before you have a chance to protest, your website can be closed down.
Moover,
I really dont see how you making derocatory comments about other posters makes your arguments any better. To the contrary. I suppose it’s up to the moderator of this forum to keep the order and maintain some standards. You will find that I will loose interest in responding to you if you continue down this path.
I will suffice to say that GCs have won all (or almost) significant legal disputes so far. I think they will continue to do so in the foreseeable futute. I dont think it serves anything to argue the legal aspects of this any longer. it’s in b&w in all UN resolutions, EU courts and in way noone has recognise the pseudo state in the North. I think your response confirms this argument. You offered no arguments in disputing the illegal status of the current status quo.
Now, regarding your fixation with the whole possesion situation.I really dont see how it is relevant to our subject of conversation. What are you saying? We all well know that the court order is not enforcable in the north, the significant part is its enforcability pretty much everywhere else in the free world, and that is enough on its own to prevent people from bying. You certainly offer no answers to the thousands of expats who are dealing with this problem (even if you are not one of them as you so claim). Did you ask them if they are willing to wait another 50-60 years so that the TRNC ackquires some kind of Taiwan status? Do you really think this will be achieved? Do you think all these people will risk their savings for this?
There is no denying that this case should ( and does) put pressure on Turkey to make concetions. You will find that through the years Turkey has not made any real compromise in the matter (Why should they, they have stated many times over the the issue has been solved in 1974). The whole Orams case IS about putting pressure on them into agreeing some kind of acceptable solution.
Chasing after a few thousand expats was never the issue. What individual GCs will do if they see no solutions in the near term is try to recover some of their lost income from these assets. There is little the RoC can do to stop them from doing this. We ACTUALLY have a democracy here in the south. Maybe you should be praying for a solution…
The Annan plan was not an acceptable solution. It would never have found its way on the table but for the Cyprus EU accession process which made that painful step necessary. It was the only way to guarantee accesion and it was the right thing to do for ALL Cypriots.
The GCs will vote for any half-way acceptable plan, Annan was far from that.
With respect, allow me to doubt you ever want to see Cyprus re-unite. With that in mind, the only thing you are trying to do here is to put up a smoke screen and blowing a lot of hot air.
You are happy with the status quo for one reason or another.
If you ARE in favour of some kind of solution, I am truly interested to know what kind of solution is acceptable to you. What is it that you want to happen with Cyprus Moover?
What is your legal status in Cyprus?
Let’s put the cards on the table mate. Let’s see where you come from and what your interests are. I am sure you will answer none of these questions….
No one who has been through 1974 living in Cyprus would talk the way you talk….and that my friend means that you ARE a guest on this island, matters not whether you live north or south….
JD:
I respect your sentiments as a human being – but you cannot simply look to what happened to the 200k GCs and 60 TCs as “..the heart of the matter…and the rest as just noise”
It shows a total lack of understanding of the history of the island and the rationale for what took place in July 1974.
It was not that just one day the Turkish Army woke up and decided to invade the island as they a few free days in their diary.
If people like you continue to peddle the notion of the ‘loss of property’ as the heart of the matter then you forget what it truly means to be human especially as you refer to the rest of what took place as “just noise”.
Try telling that to the people of both sides murdered in cold blood that the rest is “just noise”.
It seems clear by each of your postings that you have a ‘property and material agenda’ and if you judge life in only those parameters is it any wonder you swallow the GC propaganda hook, line and sinker?
In the end, there will be a POLITICAL SOLUTION. Whether it is a federal state with two separate entitities or whether the TRNC goes it alone and gets recognition as Taiwan, Kosovo, etc., is a moot point. If you are truly concerned about human suffering then you would want a solution which stops the type of attrocities which took place in the period 1950-1974.
The number of lives lost to inter communal violence has effectively dropped off since the separation – doesn’t that tell you something?
If your sole purpose is ‘material’ then you would go the route you suggest. If it is human as is “implied” (I hope I don’t give you credit for something that was unintended) in a part of your post then you will understand that BOTH sides need to make sacrifices and that ‘land for peace’ is a well known fuction of arriving at such a juncture!
Enjoy
“I simply refuse to believe that good honest ppl (as I am sure you are) cannot see that 200K people have lost everything over nightis simply wrong. These were everyday people, they werent politicians, military people, they didnt harm anyone…they were just the victims, just as so many thousand of tc’s were.If this was your family havent lost it all on a Jul morning in 74 what would you do?
This is the heart of the matter. Everything else is justt noise…”
Don’t worry. If there’s one thing more than the devil/the church that these lads are afraid of, it’s big bogeyman Turkish soldiers.
JD:
As I thought many words and little comprehension.
It is so very simple.
1. The island is divided not because expats bought in the TRNC or the ROC. It is divided because of the violence that took place here between 1950 and 1974.
2. The division is a reality. Just like the Palestinian land is occupied territory – so would the north of Cyprus be in terms of international law. The Israeli’s having been building there non-stop and they have the might of the USA behind them. In the end the solution for Palestine as well as for Cyprus will be POLITICAL. Now can you understand that or must I write a book for you in simple English?
3. Now there is a desire for peace and resolution to the problems. Do you honestly believe that going to court and winning as in Oramses case you will get a solution? If yes, than you are more naive than even I had given you credit for.
4. You don’t see any point in debating the leagl issues but then you go on to say that the GCs have won nearly all the court cases – which is it? In either case – you still NEED to enforce the courts decision – which you cannot – so in that sense the problem is still legal but with a huge POLITICAL OVERTONE! Which part of this is hard for you to comprehend?
5. It matters little what my personal situation is – save to say for your naive assumptions – I DO NOT HAVE any property in the TRNC. Though, maybe I will fly over there and take a look to buying some – I hear its good value for money
6. As far as the status of the TRNC is concerned – you say you saw no statement made by me regarding the same! Are you for real? Do you actually read the posts or just fire off posts without engaging the grey matter? For the sake of your legal education the TRNC is the DE FACTO authority of northern Cyprus. The ROC is deemed as the DE JURE authority of the entire island – do you understand – or must I explain this too? Okay, I’ll explain it before you come back with more naive postings! This means the TRNC is in control factually and the ROC is in control legally as far as the wider world is concerned. The upshot is what? You can have 1000′s of judgements but they cannot be enforced.
7. You would like to think that expats in the TRNC will run? Maybe some will – IF THEY HAVE ASSETS IN THE EU. If they don’t it matters little as there is nothing any UK, EU or ROC court can do! Now do you understand why “Possession is 9/10ths of the law”? You call it a ‘fixation’ regarding the statement on possession – but is not a fixation – it is a FACT! It’s importance is simple – after spending 6 years in court and millions in legal fees just waht exactly has Mr A won? Did he get his land back? Is the villa demolished? You also said, the GCs have won nearly all the cases – then tell me since 1974 – how much land have the GCs actually and physically got back? Answer: ZILCH!
8. If they have assets in the UK they can rearrange their affairs so there is nothing for the GCs to attach any court orders to – not as difficult as you imagine. They don’t need to wait 50-60 years or whatever you have suggested – it would take a matter of weeks for them to do what is necessary to protect themselves!
9. As for the potential recognition of the TRNC – some 56 countries have already indicated they would through the OIC (Organisation of Islamic Countries). Even the mighty USA is looking at some point to reassess their position as they NEED Turkey’s help in NATO and in the Middle East. So perhaps you ought to do your home work before making asuptions from your fingers and thumbs
10. My interests as you are keen to know – is my business save that I have no interest in property in the TRNC, As for your claim that the ROC is democratic – just take a poll of all those expats who were scammed by the democratic government who gave licences to cowboys who happen to be friends of influential politicians!
Now – after this Mr JD if you do not understand that for there to be PEACE there needs to be a POLITICAL solution, then I am wasting my time in trying to educate you.
If your only concern is with material things (which seems to be clear from your postings) – I should not be surprised that you ignore the possibility of greater violence if there is a failed peace process!
Perhaps your motto is : “better hundreds or thousands more dead than a GC lose an inch of his alleged land”
Good luck in your thinking – but I will gurantee you this – if you live long enough to see it – there will be a settlement – the GCs will NOT get their alleged land in the TRNC in totality and something like the Annan plan will come to fruition whether by action or by default!
This Mr JD you can tatoo to your brain and when it happens you will recall what I have said here!
My interest – is this – peace for both communities and no more killing.
What is your interest? Just some more land that you cannot take with you when you die (except for the land you’ll be burried in)?
Enjoy
Moover,
In response to 2951, I will say that there is noone in the south feels that we were blameless. To the contrary, we have (through our president) offered an official apology to what happened to innocent TC’s throughout the period you mentioned. there is no doubt we had a small minority of people that acted monstrusly. These people were not punished for a variety of reasons.
Still all the horrific things the GCs did is a pebble next to a mountain in comparison to what Turkey did in Cyprus in 74. Certainly, not an equitable response. Clearly, the plan was not to (just) save TC’s but to permenently divide Cyprus.
This has been openly stated by Turkish leaders throughout these years.
I wish TCs or Turkey would offer a HINT of the same kind of apologetic response for what what they did to all those people. There has been none. Instead the setup huge blinking flags on the side of the mountain (doesnt that constant blinking give you a headache?). It looks SO ridiculous, it makes the worse impression of people in the north when they see it….More foreigners look at it laughing….I wish Ali G did a bit on it…
I dont feel it is in any way constructive to argue the legallity of Turkey’s invation. I will refer you to the decisions of all civilised courts/organsation in the world.
I do feel that these conversations are pointless unless they are kept within the scope of the subject placed. It otherwise becomes an endless roundabout of the same old arguments. Our subject was “GC going after estate agents”. enough said.
and JD, I think Moover has said that launching property related legal cases as suggested in the article, is not going to result in the return of a single piece of property whereas a political solution possibly would.
Moover,
you simply do not answer any of the questions. you just chew your own thoughts over and over. Lots of wishful thinking…
Recognise the trnc? Really?
I’ll give you Turkmenistan in 35 years.You’ll be an old man moover.. and the poor pensioners of north cyprus will be by then long long gone….
Put simply: c**k on the block: “would you buy GC land in the “trnc”"?
The day you come back saying that you have invested a significant percentage of your assets in GC land “trnc” I will consider your arguments honest but your judgment poor.
Watch how quickly things will move as soon as these talks are over. Watch how there will be systematic, targeted legal action against high profile UK citizens.
I heard Prescot, David Haye, even dear old Cherry have properties….dont know on what kind of land…
This is just the beggining…
JD:
Let’s stick to the article and make it simple for you and other GCs here.
The correct title is: “North Cyprus Estate Agents the next Target”?
And not: “GC going after estate agents”
The answer is an emphatic yes if ALL what the GCs are interested in is LAND and PROPERTY.
If they are interested in “peace and co-existence” then they would negotiate in good faith and find a solution that brings that about!
It is my contention, reading posts of GCs on this site amongst others is that their main pre-occupation is with ‘land and property’ – not peace and reconciliation!
They simply forget, that no matter how rich and famous they are – when they die – they will most likely have just 6 feet of earth – no bank accounts, no villas and they will have left behind them no peace!
If you want to avoid another blood bath at some point in the future – it is better to build briges than to burn them.
Failing a POLITICAL settlement – I would say the GCs would go after anything which would appeal to their greed – they want their pound of flesh.
The pity for them is that they would have to go after the Turkish Army (a NATO member) to achieve their goal which they paatently cannot do – hence the impasse!
Enjoy
It is my contention, reading posts of GCs on this site amongst others is that their main pre-occupation is with ‘land and property’ – not peace and reconciliation!
WELL said, Moover
JD:
You are living in cloud cookoo land (I don’t mean the ROC) I mean in your mind!
Whaich uestion did I not answer JD? Let’s have some facts as opposed to what GC usually have to say here and elsewhere! If I have failed to answer – I will readdress it – put your money where you big mouth is!
Wishful thinking about the IOC? Please research the last two OIC meetings and see what you come up with!
I’ll tell you what – give me the location of your alleged land in the TRNC and I’ll look to buying that – then you can sue me? Come on put your money where you mouth is
))
What your opinion is about me is as important to me as a grain of sand on the Golden Beach of the TRNC! JD as much as you might think you are an important person in my eyes you are just another greedy GC who doesn’t understand realpolik and who will go to his
grave still lamenting about his alleged land in the TRNC!
Bring it on JD – profile all important and unimportant people you like – you will still not get an inch of land unless and until there is a POLITICAL SOLUTION! I will take a bet with you – this time next year not a lot would have changed reagrding how much land a greedy GC has manged to take back! How about it?
Still nice to see that you have finally posted your true colours to the mast – its all about materialism to you and that is why you will fail!
Enjoy
Don’t you outsiders get it yet, the GC’s want every TC out of Cyprus and every bit of land in their name.
JD:
If the talks fail – it is NOT the beginning (a word you should at least be able to spell correctly) – it will be the END for GCs ever having a chance to get an iota of what they allege to be GC land / property.
As Troodo has correctly stated – GC pre-occupation is with land and property and not peace and reconciliation.
The aim of your court cases is to leverage your bargaining at the talks – and to create ‘fear and panic’ amongst ex-pats and TCs with EU assets.
You may succeed in the short run to cause some fear and panic but in the end you will not be able to ‘kick out’ tens of thousands of TCs now happily settled in the TRNC even if it is on your “alleged land”!
There in lies your predicament. If TRNC titles are just pieces of paper like ‘andrex’ then the unenforceable judgements are the equivalent of the brown stuff that we flush down the sewers
Enjoy
Ian Edwards wrote:
“I must admit I can’t see a “rush” of EU citizens to TRNC to set up estate agencies. For starters I don’t believe it’s all that easy to just set up shop and begin selling, and what’s more there are already quite a few EU estate agents in TRNC who have been there in business for many years. We went to three before finding our villa.”
I think the writer was being ironic, Ian. Who sets up estate agencies in the middle of a recession, in an illegal state, in a flat market, to sell properties the courts have ruled belong to Greek Cypriots? The only mug who would contemplate such an idiotic move would be the same kind of person who would buy stolen property in the first place and think they would get away with it.
You’re right PtePike, it would be now foolish to buy unless you were a non-EU citizen or if you intended to up roots and live in the TRNC permanently or it was so cheap it was worth the risk (a true carpetbagger-cheapskate) or…
Yawn. organ replacement Clinics , the new climate control.
Forget bricks & mortar…kidneys, livers and organs ! More victims to the clinics owned by the ‘old class of 77′
Hey fool , there is nothing “alleged ” about G/C owned property in the occupied parts , more than 80% was and still is G/C OWNED PROPERTY. Cheapskates will be removed BY .. LEGAL MEANS !
What a Plonker !
moover,
seeks help.
get a life.
love jd
ha moover the important one….
hahahha
polly
27/01/2010 at 1:07 pm
“I did try to draw your attention to the lunatic in post
2929 and 2930. He is a lunatic and I am pleased his fellow
countrymen see this too. Yes we all get a little heated, but
it is attitudes like his that caused this problem in the first
place.
Peaceful negotiations leading to a political solution is the
only answer.
Aietus if the British police knew what you were posting, I think you might have your collar felt. Preaching racial hatred is a crime. I think you would have been right at home with Hitlers
brownshirts.”
No dear polly its not my type of attitude that caused this problem it was brittish involvement,just like it was in india,palestine,rhodesia and else where.my attitude is a product of your brittish political expidiency.
as for the brittish police, madame tell me one thing.if i had a home in london and reported there was a usurper in my home would they evict them?
for me the truth is i had family killed,i was forced to migrate to another foreign land without my dignity as being called a refo and a wog displaces your dignity along with any compassion i had.
now,dear polly if this happened to you and one day you managed to return to your home as a free man and you found foriegn usurpers in your home ,what would you do?,im not talking about a peaceful resolution im speaking if a war broke out and the tables were turned.
what would you do to those that enjoyed the fruits of your labour whilst you had to painstakingly start from scratch,where you had to work 2 and 3 jobs to make ends meet,where your life mostly knew hardship,despair and sorrow?what would you do to those pompous vultures that cannot see the err of their choice and instead only seek to justify and protect their ill gotten gains?,polly,this is my story and it doesnt matter to me that you do not understand,its enough that i know what i went through and reason enough for my wrath.
p.s,even hitlers entry into power was assisted by the brittish sense of what justice and fairness is through the treaty of versilles.
Troodo says: “ it will be the END for GCs ever having a chance to get an iota of what they allege to be GC land / property.”
I’m shocked you’ve still got the audacity to make your infamous “predictions” about Cyprus, after so many embarrassing posts you’ve made in the past on the purposeless forum regarding…
“direct trade”, “direct flights”, “recognition”, “Orams win”, “annexation”, “embargoes”…etc
You just LOVE making a total dork of yourself don’t you?
Troodo: “Don’t you outsiders get it yet, the GC’s want every TC out of Cyprus and every bit of land in their name.”
Ultimately, you’ll get what you’ve earned.
Anyone who ever came to Cyprus uninvited eventually got thrown out in one way or another, if the history of Cyprus is anything to go by. Foreigners who do not embrace the indigenous population do not make it here.
Correction: In my previous post read “Moover” instead of “Troodo”.
Why limit to Estate Agents – why not go after Advocates too,
all part of the chain – without them most of us wouldnt ex pats
wouldnt have purchased.
I know mistakes in my post about advocates but edit button
did not respond.
Grt Real,
If everyone went back to our origins God knows where we would ALL
end up. I do not know about you but I have English, Irish,
Scottish, Commanch Indian and Welsh blood in my family and that
is just what I know of!!
Get Real:
If you are going to quote me – at least be honest enough to give the whole quote: I said “if the negotiations fail it will not be a new beginning (as JD asserted) but the end of the GCs ever getting a piece of what they allege is their land”
Of ocurse I note you singularly fail to address all the other points I raised – a little too much for the two brain cells I would summise
And what about GC predictions? In early 1974 they predicted the TCs would be kicked out of Cyprus – what happened? In 1980′s they said the embargos and sanctions would cripple the TRNC – what happened? Since the 1990′s you have taken case after case to the ECHR and elsewhere and what has happened – Sweet FA!
As for my outlook – let’s wait and see – we can have the same conversation a year from today and I bet – like JD and Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss – you will still be writing here about the TRNC and how your land has been allegedly stolen and how you feel let down by your ROC government and the EU, UK etc.,
If you want let’s see you put your money where your big mouth is – of course none of you GCs would ever do that – would you? You love money and material things more than life itself – that is why the G in GC can be equally Greedy Cypriots
Enjoy
Yawn…Yawn…Yannniiisss:
In law the word ‘alleged’ is used to indicate a claim – and it remains as such unless and until proven otherwise – of course if you are a GC with his head burried in that part of his anatomy where gthe sun doesn’t shine – it is not surprising the only thing you know and smell is the brown stuff
Enjoy
JD:
We know you agenda – it is all about land and property which you value above peace, reconciliation and humanity.
That’s why all of you rants are about land and property and nothing about peace and reconciliation.
When you and your cohorts lose the arugument and cannot address the points raised you hide behind each other
Maybe GCs like it from behind – Let’s face it the GC got their just deserts when the Turkish army came to protect the TCs and ever since then you have had the same narrative
35 years on nothing much has changed. 35 years of court cases and legal challeneges what have you achieved – Sweet FA!
Negotiations is the way forward with the focus on peace, security and reconciliation.
Enjoy
Polly , you purchased out of greed , wanting something for as little as possible , a common trait with cheapskates !
You also purchased out of ignorance another common trait of cheapskates !
Moover , you are not just a big mouth , with no trousers , you are a rude bugger too !
There is nothing alleged about my property deeds you Plonker , they have my fathers name and I along with my family have inherited them, until that is a brainless Brit , used to be a football hooligan no doubt , comes along to educate me and tell me that the deeds that I have are alleged !
You are a first class ignoramous Plonker !
JD,
You stated:
“there is no doubt we had a small minority of people that acted monstrusly(sic). These people were not punished for a variety of reasons.”
It speaks volumes that you don’t care to clarify what any of these “reasons” might have been. It leaves one to conclude that whatever these reasons were, there is a strong possibility that the same mindset still exists today, given some of the vitriol emanating from the GCs and their supporters.
polly
it was with great regret that north cyprus free press is not so free.i wrote in reply to your comments about Aietus but i must have hit a nerve with the editor who is doing his uttermost to facilitate turkish propaganda at the expense of free speach.
Vaughan and Moover
Your mission, if you choose to accept it is to keep that silly
old duffer occupied. perhaps you could put the word PLONKER
in the naughty box while you are at it, grossly overused by
him.
This message will self destruct in 10 seconds
Hey YS,
“used to be a football hooligan no doubt”
Which team? APOEL?
Not that I know much about football (being a girly) but is that what they call a Home goal?
polly wrote: edit button did not respond.
Hi Polly, I think you can only change a comment for up to 30 minutes.
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:
What can I say – you obviously have not read the submissions of the lawyers for Mr A. In the original civil petition in the ROC it is written – Mr A ‘alleges’ the property belonging to him has been illegally trespassed upon by….”
Don’t take my word for it – go to the ROC court and read the original suit for suing the Oramses.
Now that is out of the way – tell me who is the real “plonker” here? Someone who talks out of that part of his anatomy where the sun doesn’t shine or someone who relies on the facts?
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiiss – you really must try harder! I guess you know what this means – I would allege it was written on your school report often enough
Enjoy
leo wrote:north cyprus free press is not so free
Leo/Aietus since your death threat, your comments have been put in a moderation queue. When I find time to go through that queue I will decide whether your comments are lawful. You are not free to make death threats, many people who read these comments remember times when such threats were not empty ones, and yes they were made and carried out by both GCs and TCs.
Leo / Aietus:
Mal is correct.
Freedom of speech has its limits. Since the GCs are always going about the ‘law’ then you should remember that freedom of speech doesn’t extend to people shouting ‘fire’ in a theatre full of people and nor does it extend to people whose only purpose is to instigate violence.
Freedom of speech = freedom of speech UNDER THE RULE OF LAW and the law doesn’t extend such freedoms to lunatics who threaten murder on any forum1
No doubt some GCs will come back and say what about the law in relation to the rights of GCs – well, before you do I refer you to what I have written on several threads here – so please don’t plead ignorance – and if you do – perhaps you will then understand that is a perpetual state of mind of some GCs here
Enjoy
Aietus,
I am sorry for your losses. I am sorry that you feel two
wrongs make a right. but….. you cannot justify threatening
to murder under any circumstances. Needs be where the devil
drives – but it does not make the devil right.
I cannot condone your racism or your threats I find even now
you cannot resist calling someone not of the same ethnic background
wog. I think Newbury Constabulary would find that interesting.
Anyone got their number? Malcolm I am replying to our troubled
friend Aietus post #2980
Malcolm , I entirely agree with you on this one. Such stupid threats are usually made by stupid people !
At a court of law , until an offense is proven , it is referred to as the alleged offense . My deeds do not need any sort of ” proving” they were issued by the British administered relative department many years ago. Nothing alleged about that mate !
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:
If you want to enforce your ‘apparent’ rights – the court cannot say you have a valid title unless and until it examies the facts.
Upto that point your statement that you own something is nothing more than what you ‘allege’
I would have thought at your age you would at least be able to comprehend basic common sense – obviously this is the one thing on which you have proved me wrong!
Enjoy
Then may I say that you are talking from the rear passage.
Do the deeds that I hold of my property in the UK NEED COURT VERIFICATION ?
Are my UK deeds for my property here in the UK ” alleged ” deeds ?
Don’t be a Plonker mate !
My marriage certificate is genuine , not alleged and neither is my right to my Cyprus property supported by legal deeds ” alleged” .
Go back to school mate !
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:
Your two brain cells are obviously overworked!
If in the UK your property had been ‘squatted’ in you woud go to court to allege that it is your property. You would then provide your title deeds as proof of your allegation.
I cannot imagine anyone in their right minds wanting to squat inside your wife
Unless they were brain dead or blind or both 
Are you really that thick? Is it genetic amongst the GCs? I understood from Kyriacos that the GCs were the most highly educated in the EU – sounds like he was making that up to
Enjoy
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:
P.P.S.
If somebody did squat in your wife on the off chance – you would need your marriage certificate to prove the allegation that she was your wife
Enjoy
Moover,
a The north will continue to live in limbo legal land for many many years to come. You know it, I know it, everybody here knows it. Try as you might, this will not change. Thats why the court ruling is so important. Over the next decades and in comparison to the rest of the (western) world, tcs will continue to see their standard of living suffer. This simply means they will be better off compromising than try to go for a Taiwan type of solution.
b. For someone who will not state who and what you are, trying to take the moral high-ground is truly funny. You’re a clown at best. You saying you support a political solution makes me laugh. The last thing you ever want to happen is to see this island re-united. And why would you? you now live on stolen assets. we both well know that the vast majority of tc’s were poor and uneducated and with very little wealth prior to 74
Try for once to understand that the only way about this solution is to for people to get what is rightfully theirs (property and political right). Unless this is satisfied there will be no solution and we will continue down the same path. The Turks in the north will continue to suffer and the Greeks in the south will continue to try to sue everone trying to benefit from their loss.
p.s. get a life.
Moover , you are I think , do correct me if I’m wrong an English peasant !! Despised by your own race for being such an arrogant arsehole . May be it is the only part of your anatomy that makes any sense at all because you are continually letting them rip !
Your pretencious salvo desperately trying to convince anyone tuned in that you are a ” legal expert” eminates from that rear passage of yours in honour of which Im ceratin you spend time being entertained by Anatolian peasants , so here we have one English peasant being “screwboulously” entertained by one from Anatolia .
Plonker you are and Plonker you will remain .!
JD:
You would be amusing if you were funny but you are neither funny nor smart enough to know what really counts or to tackle me on law or ethics
You assume that the TRNC will live an impoverished existence without the aid of the ROC – you are not only wrong but also deluded. No TC has been killed, had his land stolen or been subject to ‘pass control laws’ since the GCs went south. No TC has been ousted from his / her job or had to beg for mercy of a GC loaded government to get their fair share of the state assets. That by any standards is progress. Ah! But then I forget – you only measure success in terms of land and property – human life counts for little in your make belief world. Don’t make me laugh!
The history of Cyprus did not begin in 1974 and its solution will be POLITICAL but based on a number of premises only ONE of which is property. But you always emphasise property and material wealth becasue that is all you ever known! What a sad existence you have JD!
Why oh! why do you need to know so desperately my interests? Are you worried about my welfare or just nosey? My interests do not matter in the bigger picture save to say that I would like a just and fair settlement based on peace, security and reconciliation. You and your cohorts on the otherhand are simply interested in land and property!
Well, the good news for you is when you are dead you’ll take 6 feet of earth with you if you are burried and if not you will be scattered in the wind or drowned in the sea. That JD is all the earth anyone ever takes with them! The sooner you understand that the better for you
I never said I wanted the island united or divided. I simply said I wanted a POLITICAL solution which all parties would accept. You obviously have a problem with reading as well as comprehending – I suggest a crash course in the English language may be warranted
I don’t need to take the moral high ground – but as certainly as the sun rises in the East I know anyone who only focuses on land and property does not hold the moral high ground – his interests are only on the physical high ground over looking the most beautiful part of Cyprus
If and when I need lessons in how to be a materialist with no humanity I’ll be sure to look you up! Until then – plug away at the legal process and let’s see this time next year how many inches of land you or your cohorts have actually physically acquired.
My uneducated guess would be ZILCH, NADA, NOTHING
Go ahead, prove me wrong
Enjoy
You can say what you like about what you think about me but you are a self-made man – if you understand that phrase
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:
Did your wife give you a rough ride or something? You sound awfully angry
I don’t need to convince anyone about my credentials – but your credentials are plain for everone to see. A lonely old man, with a limited vocabulary and a zero understanding of the legal process.
I would actually feel sorry for you if you were not such a conceited old fool!
By the way being such an English peasant as you described me -can you enlighten me as to the meaning of the word “screwboulously” – maybe I missed something in my education but I have never come accross such a word! Do you mean “scrupulously”?
It is such a hard life being an English peasant and not being able to understand the sophisticated liguistic skills of yours truly.
Don’t make me laugh!
One thing I can say is that your language skills are far better than your legal skills – but it probably best for you stick to your knitting
Enjoy
I shall refrain from answering on behalf of JD , but I was rather tempted to put two fingers up at the direction of this jumped up expert on Cyprus politics , in reality he knows sweet fa but nevertheless proceeds to offer opinions whose formulation occurred in a part of his anatomy kindly , or rather willingly donated to some Anatolian peasant.
What the hell does this moron know about Cyprus and its people. Yes we need a political solution but not one that arseholes such as him will impose upon us , a far more educated , sophisticated and superbly articulate race of people who rely on justice and humanity not greed and benovelent …interests !
Moover , I said screwbulously , and I will stick to that !
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:
So you are not only delusional with respect to the law and the Cyprus problem but you also invent words when you cannot spell and seek to defend other because that’s what GCs are good at – being all talk and no action except when it comes to sheep!
You are not only a joke Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss but an old joke at that – by the time you get a judgement that you can enforce in the TRNC – I would summise you’ll be pushing up the daisies
What’s another 35 years of waiting…
I don’t need to know much about the Cyprus problem to out wit you and JD and any of the other GCs here! If this is the best of the GCs debating skills on offer – Then keep it coming – you are giving every one a good laugh as well as ridiculing yourself in the process
Enjoy
Yiannis, by responding to Moover you give him the oxygen of publicity he so desperately seeks. The fool can’t even tell the difference between an allegation of illegal trespass (his 10.41 post), that he should know was written in Greek, and what he calls alleged GC land (3.51pm 27th and 8.41am 28th). He’s confused, one minute he says he has no interest in property in the north the next minute he is boasting about buying some there. As for his “possession is 9/10s of the law” crap, if he really knew as much law as he claims he would realise that the law is not as simple as that. A genuine professional lawyer would not bother or waste his time on a forum such as this. He is a lightweight, of little or no consequence.
He is indeed a barrack room lawyer.
THEFT IS 9/10s OF THE LAW
ENJOY
Jerry:
Nice to note that you read all my posts with such detail. The only problem is that you don’t understand sarcasm and you cannot distiguish fact from GCs propaganda.
I have, as I have said no interest in any land or property in the TRNC – however, (now try and follow this if you can, take it nice and slow – so you don’t miss the sarcasm) if you think that I am afraid of GC threats to being sued I’d be happy to buy in the TRNC and have even offered Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss to look to buying “his” alleged land in the TRNC
Get it, Jerry? Too much for that well trained GC brain of yours?
A genuine lawyer would not waste his / her time – aren’t you the judgemental type…
As you know nothing about me or my interest and you cannot even distinguish fact from GC fiction let alone sarcasm – I guess your judgement doesn’t really count for much – does it 
If I choose to air my perspectives here it is my perogative and if in your considered opinion this forum is a waste of time (implied) then what are you doing here – and finally, if I am a lightweight as you allege – why not take up my offer of going to see a ‘proper ROC lawyer’ and get his / her opinion on your view of Paragraph 22 of the Oramses judgement
Of course you won’t – will you – for one it will cost you money – the thing that you worship the most and two, you will in all probability if the ROC lawyer is worth the qualifications he / she claims will confirm what I have said about paragraph 22
Well, how about it Jerry? Put your money where you big mouth is and dust off that wallet of yours with all the cobwebs – its time to party and spend some money…
It took you several days to come up with a retort to “possession is 9/10ths of the law” must be getting smart in your old age but still the question on your mind is whether you will ever live long enough to see your alleged property in the TRNC?
My money says no!
POSSESSION HAS BEEN AND WILL ALWAYS BE 9/10THS OF THE LAW and you JD don’t have possession – call it what you want – but you still don’t have it – and that’s what makes you the sad person you are…
Enjoy
ooooppps:
POSSESSION HAS BEEN AND WILL ALWAYS BE 9/10THS OF THE LAW and you Jerry / JD don’t have possession – call it what you want – but you still don’t have it – and that’s what makes you the sad people you are…
Enjoy
Moover , how is your Anatolian little ..moover treating you , tell us arsehole !
Yawnnniiisss:
I bet you’d like to know how my arse is – you dirty GC bugger
DON’T ENJOY
I knew you were one , from day one !
Enjoy it Plonker or should I say arsehole !
Moover: “So you are not only delusional with respect to the law and the Cyprus problem but you also invent words when you cannot spell…”
So what does “summise” mean Einstein? It’s further down in your post! “r” and “m” are miles apart on a keyboard so it’s not like you hit the wrong key!
I guess you’re just making a fool of your self as per usual eh?
Moover: “POSSESSION HAS BEEN AND WILL ALWAYS BE 9/10THS OF THE LAW ”
Just don’t say that to the Orams in their face or they’ll whack you with a frying pan on the head turning it into a pancake!
Leo,
I have seen Aietus’s second post and of course I feel great
sorrow for his losses and suffering. No amount of suffering
can justify threats of murder. The British ex pats, of whom
I am one are targets of verbal abuse – thats okay no-one ever
died from that – physical abuse is another matter.
Why doesnt he take his case to the Property Commission?
Malcolm has a duty, by law to not allow threats on his site.
Just look at the banter that goes on with Get Real, Yiannis,
Moover and Vaughan to name but a few. It gets a bit heated
but no physical threats take place. Join us, stay within the
bounds of what the law (not Malcolm) will allow and you can vent
your spleen as much as you want. We are all human, we do not hate
you and I hope you do not hate us.
Moover,
So far you have stolen, Yawnnis, possession is 9/10ths of the
law and now KNITTING from me – I think I will take you the
the Words Commission.
You didnt steal summise – I know exactly what it means but
Unreal doesnt.
How to keep a fool in suspense – we’ll tell him later. The old jokes are the best.
Moover , the self appointed ” adjudicator” is currently analysing the Cyprob to all cheapskates on CY44 , BOOSTING THEIR MORALE , SO HE THINKS , with the usual urban myth that if you steal something you own it because its in your possession ! The Orams discovered otherwise !!
Let all cheapskates understand that buying stolen property and possessing it does not make them the legal owners .ORAMS !
Possession this Plonker says is 9/10ths of …. to that I say Moover you are a “looner” or is it looney !
Okay Unreal
I GIVE IN SUMMISE IS SURMISE WITH A FROCK ON
We all hit the wrong key now and then especially me.
Get Real:
So your answer to all my postings and questions is finding one misspelt word! My you are such a clever person – not
Maybe if you had an answer to getting your alleged property back I might actually pay some real attention to what you have to say! Since you have singularly failed to get anything back for 35 years – let’s face it POSSESSION HAS BEEN, IS AND ALWAYS BE 9/10THS OF THE LAW!
The Oranses have lost a legal case but will not lose out on property in the TRNC! Tell me when will Mr A be coming to Lapta to enjoy his land and victory? He hasn’t enjoyed it for 35+ years and will not for the next life time! It looks like “his” property is about to be nationalised so his next case will have to ba against the TRNC which he doesn’t recognise! Now that will be interesting
So smart arse who are the losers? Mr A who spent millions of the ROC money getting back his alleged land or the TRNC? The Oramses will be given property by the TRNC maybe more alleged GC property?
GCs are sour losers! Your real frustration is that you cannot get back what you allege is yours because the Turkish army kicked your arse in 1974 to prevent a GC attempt to wipe out TCs in a genocide! You failed then and you have failed for the last 35 years. All your legal actions have achieved what? Exactly the same number as you had after July 1974 – Zilch, nada, nothing! And outside of a political solution you will get what – Zero, nada, zilch, nothing
Better tatoo it to your brain if you can find it – POSSESSION IS AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN AND WILL ALWAYS BE 9/10THS OF THE LAW!
Enjoy
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:
Everyone knows what the Greeks like – Sodomy is a way of life for you guys no wonder you assume the rest of the world is like you
Still, you must have enjoyed getting figuratively shafted by he Turkish army in 1974 – and tell me after 35 years of whinging, legal actions and complaining what have you actually achieved? Zero.
The sum total of GCs achievement to get back what you allege to be your land = zero!
Now I know that can be so very frustrating but really you can always take out your frustrations by buggering each other – after all that’s what you GCs are allegedly good at! Maybe Get Real will oblige he seems to have a soft spot for you
NEVER FORGET – POSSESSION IS, HAS BEEN AND WILL ALWAYS BE 9/10THS OF THE LAW – and guess what – YOU DO NOT HAVE POSSESSION
So you can take those legal judgements and shove it where you GCs like things to be shoved – where the sun doesn’t shine
UNLESS AND UNTIL THERE IS A POLITICAL SOLUTION YOU WILL NEVER GET WHAT YOU ALLEGE IS YOUR PROPERTY
PEACE, SECURITY AND RECONCILIATION SHOULD BE YOUR GOAL NOT A PIECE OF LAND THAT YOU CANNOT TAKE WITH YOU WHEN YOU ARE DEAD OLD MAN!
Enjoy
You make a pathetic attempt trying to convince your self that you are not a pathological G/C hater .
You invent the bullshit of the legal definition of ownership , you then tell us that Turkey , who kicked our arses in 1974 – a nation of 70 million against half a million – did so in order to put a stop to the ongoing …genocide!!
Mr Plonker SIX YEARS BEFORE TURKEY INVADED KILLING MORE THAN 5 THOUSAND CYPRIOTS , THERE WAS NO INTER COMMUNAL CONFLICT , THERE WERE NO FATALITIES DUE TO CONFLICT.
Now get this in your head you looner !!
Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:
Well, well, well…I see the GC history teachers did a good job on you or is it that getting old has meant you have not only lost your memory but also your marbles?
I suggest if you still have the capacity to read the history of Cyprus from an independent source. I will not be holding my breadth
No one in their right minds could ever believe what you have written here – not even you – but then maybe you are how can I put it – two brain cells short of a human brain
So it is possible you would believe your own diatribe!
Yawnnniiisss: Tell me did you enjoy having your arse kicked by the Turkish Army?
How does it feel to be living in cloud cockoo land? Do you have land there too? May be if its occupied you can take it to court
?
Enjoy
Moover “I suggest if you still have the capacity to read the history of Cyprus from an independent source.”
Utter rubbish! Nobody should be studying the Cyprus problem from an “independent source” as you foolishly suggest, but from a CREDIBLE SOURCE!
Now quit making a total fool of yourself on a daily basis, and open your eyes wide…
What constitutes “Credible Evidence”?
http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net/index_files/Article01.htm
Propagators of misinformation…
http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net/index_files/Article28.htm
Credible Links
http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net/index_files/CredibleLinks.htm
And don’t open you silly mouth again unless it’s to quote from a CREDIBLE SOURCE…
Get Real! wrote:And don’t open you silly mouth again unless it’s to quote from a CREDIBLE SOURCE…
Sorry GR, multiple links end up in a queue until I check to see if they are spam. They all seem to be directed to the same website which you run. This isn’t the credible source you were referring to was it?
Malcolm Channing: “Sorry GR, multiple links end up in a queue until I check to see if they are spam. They all seem to be directed to the same website which you run. This isn’t the credible source you were referring to was it?”
I’d be more worried about your “queue” (read selective post muncher) if I were you because it really is starting to irritate! I won’t speak to you again about this other than a final…
OPEN THE GATES TO ALL POSTERS NOW AND CUT THE CRAP!
@ Get Real!: demanded, OPEN THE GATES TO ALL POSTERS NOW
You haven’t the faintest how to run a website and you tell me to allow any spammer with a post full of porn links to fill up my site! So far in 4 months I’ve had Akismet anti-spam software block nearly 2,000 such posts and about 20 of those were not spam. I’ll run my website how I like and if you don’t like it go elsewhere.
Malcolm, GC posters are NOT “porn link spammers” and I think you know very well who/what I’m talking about!
I’ve been online before most of you even knew what a bloody computer looked like (from the FidoNet days) so don’t preach to me what a website is all about!
Do you Know?…You can get the accurate information from estate agents and online property portals.Try to check once
http://www.propertylive.co.uk/