By joing the EU with or without a …

78 Responses to “By joing the EU with or without a …”

1. yiannis savvides

   31/01/2010 at 10:16 am

   As I understand the progress of the talks currently is that there are certain areas where total disagreement exists.
   One is Turkey’s intransigence in demanding that she reatins guarantor status that woul legally allow her to internvene in any part of Cyprus.
   This demand is rejected totally by the G/Cs stating that as an EU member nation, Cyprus , Turkey has no place in Cyprus. The concessions made by the President which the Cypriot people will have to approve in a refendum are fundamental in reaching an agreed solution. Rotating presidency being one of the main concessions , remembering that the overwhelming majority of the Cypriot people are G/Cs.
   Personally I have no problem with a T/C becoming the president with or without rotating process in order. The problem I would have is if the President of Cyprus considered his motherland to be a foreign nation to which nation his allegiance would be conveyed .
   The removal of the majority of settlers also creates huge problems for most G/Cs bearing in mind that Turkey , contrary to Geneva conventions ,introduced the settlers with the sole purpose of altering the demographics of the island. Will an agreement be reached ? I hope so but I shall not be holding my breath.

   #3279
2. Malcolm Channing

   31/01/2010 at 10:29 am

   yiannis savvides wrote:The problem I would have is if the President of Cyprus considered his motherland to be a foreign nation
   
   YS, “motherland” that’s a strange phrase especially as there are still GCs in the south who consider Greece to be their motherland and would be eligible to become President. Perhaps you’ll prove me wrong on this? If I am not wrong then I believe what you really mean is that, like the church, you would not want a Turk in that position even if they were born in Cyprus and believed they were Cypriot. Perhaps that is not what you’re saying. Perhaps you would also be against any EU citizen who was a settler from being President? I don’t know you’ll have to explain this in more detail, or perhaps you would prefer to avoid the issue?

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3. kyriacos

   31/01/2010 at 12:43 pm

   By joing the EU with or without a proper solution to the C.Problem Turkey will then be forced to comply with the EU-human rights law or otherwise will has economic consequences. So i don’t see why GC would want Turkey out of Europe. In contrary TC are the one who falsely hope that by leading current talks to dead end they can achieve some sort of recognition.

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4. Malcolm Channing

   31/01/2010 at 1:07 pm

   kyriacos wrote:By joing the EU with or without a proper solution to the C.Problem Turkey will then be forced to comply with the EU-human rights law
   
   Good point K, and I believe that this is a possibility. Turkey might be told that the Cyprus Problem can be temporarily ignored and perhaps even opening ports too. They then become an EU member and… That’s where I get stuck. I can see them being fined and not paying the fine… I can see Turkish settlers being given the right of residency in Cyprus as EU citizens. You sure you want all this K?
   I prefer this kind of debate to the rubbish that’s being thrown around. Believe it or not I’m undecided about a lot of things and won’t decide until I believe I have enough solid evidence. That’s why I like GCs on here debating and making me question some of the ideas I’m temporarily holding. I’m more interested in NOW than yesterday and as someone said, the future is rapidly approaching.

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5. yiannis savvides

   31/01/2010 at 1:49 pm

   Malcolm , just to clarify a couple of things once and for all .
   Greece IS NOT MY MOTHERLAND AND NEITHER IS GREECE THE MOTHERLAND OF THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF G/Cs.
   On the CY Forum I have on many occasions posted that my ambition is to see a T/C as the legally elected President of Cyprus , representing ALL Cypriot citizens and working for the benefit of our mutual homeland , the island of Cyprus.
   Greece is anathema to me just as is but to higher level TURKEY THE OCCUPIER.
   I consider all Cypriot citizens to be equally entitled to join a political party and rise up in the ranks of such a party. Exactly as happens in the UK .

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6. Malcolm Channing

   31/01/2010 at 2:13 pm

   yiannis savvides wrote: I consider all Cypriot citizens to be equally entitled to join a political party and rise up in the ranks of such a party
   
   So if, as K suspects might happen, Turkey enters the EU and Turks as EU citizens living in Cyprus for 5 years become citizens, just to clarify things, would you have a problem with them becoming President? Or are only “proper” citizens allowed to have that role? I’m sure you realise that by joining the EU all EU citizens regardless of residency are equal – Turks and all.

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7. Moover

   31/01/2010 at 2:50 pm

   Turkey will not join the EU – not becuase the EU doesn’t want it in – but because Turkey doesn’t need the EU except as a leverage in its internal politics for the immediate future. It will continue to play this in / out game for a long as necessary to get its internal act together. Turkey has a much bigger role through its strategic and political position in the Middle East and in the Islamic World. The EU needs Turkey because of the access to oil and gas from Central Asia and because it has a young population and a growing market as well as a strong Muslim country.

   The Cyprus problem will NOT be solved through the current negotiations because as always the GCs do not negotiate in good faith and are constantly doing whatever they can to ensure the talks fail!

   The political solution will come when the GCs realise that after 35 years of playing with the TCs future they no longer have a veto on the success of the TRNC. This will happen once the TRNC starts to look to its roots and move East rather than West. That move will be dictated by Turkey and not by the petty local politics on the island.

   Once the TRNC starts down that road the GCs will realise that the game is up – and if they don’t negotiate in ‘good faith’ they can kiss goodbye to any chance of peace, security and reconciliation – not to forget their alleged land in the TRNC.

   If a solution is reached it will be TWO separate states with some land being traded for reaching a solution but the GCs will NOT get what they truly want which is a Cyprus free of TCs (just read posts on this and CypForums) and you will get the idea of what the GC have had in mind for the last 35 years+.

   The USA, UK and even the EU have said that additional sanctions on the TRNC are unwarranted. Still, that has not been enough for the GCs to act with ‘good faith’ Only when the TCs realise that their destiny lies not in the EU with all its red tape and hypocrisy that they will take their own destiny in their hands.

   When the TRNC shows that despite the duplicious nature of the GCs in their various legal challeneges it will survive and thrive then and only then will the GCs come to the table with clean hands.

   The notion that the EU has much to offer new members is overplayed when it comes to either Turkey or the TCs position in the EU. neither are ‘Christian enough’ or ‘White enough’ to join this ‘Crusaders Club’. Turkey will get special status but on its terms and NOT on the EU’s terms.

   The strategic blocks in geopolitcal dimensions are shifting – and they are moving East. Turkey has an important role to play. The GCs are in the terminolgy of a poker game – ‘small chips’ of no real consequence to the bigger picture.

   The next period 12-18 months will be difficult for the TRNC but the last 35 years have not been easy either. The TRNC will come through this period as it has the last 35 years with or without EU investors.

   When the negotiations start in earnest – the TRNC will not be subject to the demands of the GCs for total domination of the island. It will be essentially a ‘velvet divorce’. A Checkoslovakia or a Kosovo – and the Orams case like all the other cases will just be a footnote in the history of the island!

   The key in all of this is for the TCs to realise that no matter what they do the West and the Gcs will always behave in a two-faced manner. It happened in the 1960′s and in 2004. Once the ‘penny drops’ that the TCs can shape their own destiny and it does not have to be in the EU to be successful – the solutions will come.

   Roll on 2012

   Enjoy

   #3301
8. Malcolm Channing

   31/01/2010 at 3:01 pm

   Moover wrote: Once the ‘penny drops’ that the TCs can shape their own destiny and it does not have to be in the EU to be successful – the solutions will come.
   
   What interests me is the shape of the TRNC to come.

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9. yiannis savvides

   31/01/2010 at 3:33 pm

   Malcolm , at the risk of repeating my self let me state once more my position and that of the vast majority of Cypriot citizens.
   Provided a Cypriot citizen aspiring to become the leader of his party has the interests of his homeland at heart , that is of course Cyprus , he can be Chinese , Japanese , Turkish , Greek , Muslim , Christian and should his party win an election I shall pay my respects to the President of Cyprus. So le us put this myth to sleep once and for all . Incidentally , I’m certain that you know of an Armenian , Mr Kakoyian who might one day become the president of the RoC.
   I’m not advocating a solution that requires only G/Cs in charge of the nation. Our Mr Brown , a proud scot , is accepted by the English and the Welsh as the PM of the UK , not necessarily either supported or even respected but he is accepted to be the leader of the Labour party and the British Prime Minister .
   I do so much hope than one day we could perhaps emulate the British political system , minus the expense debacle of course !!

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10. Moover

    31/01/2010 at 3:37 pm

    Mal:

    The shape of the TRNC ‘once the penny drops’ and before a settlement?

    These are just generalities and would urge the TRNC to start the process of ‘going it alone’!

    1. The TRNC will or should persue recognition outside of the EU. In 2004, the EU had was said to have given an undertaking to the TRNC that in the event of a GC ‘no’ to the EU would not stand in the way of International recognition of the TRNC. Well, it is time for the TRNC to cash in that promise. The members of the OIC (Organisation of Islamic Countries) have already indicated that if the TRNC wanted to move in a different direction they would look to recognition of it. In addition it needs to push the ‘supporters’ of the TRNC in the EU and there are some together with the USA to change tact. The GCs will only start negotiating in earnest when the TRNC can show it can be viable without EU memebership!

    2. For this to happen – the TRNC governemnt in conjuction with Turkey should look to restructuring its internal processes and start introducing a better environment for FDI. It would include a total revamp of systems, structure, strategies and staff amonst others. The aim should be to be come in 15-20 years the real jewel of the Med – but with its focal point being East. For too long the focal point of the TCs has been EU and some kind of reconciliation with the GCs. It should be clear that after 2004 neither the EU nor the GCs have acted in good faith.

    3. In terms of the existing FDI and ex-pat homes – they should be guranteed by the TRNC government and should form a part of the final divorce from the GCs. Understandbly, the GC should be compensated for their ‘losses’ net of TC losses in the south. Any balance should be guaranteed and paid over an agreed period of time.

    4. Once they have the initial platform in place investors will come. They always do. The simple equation for investors is the risk / reward ratio. If the risks / uncertainties are priced in – the market will respond.

    5. It should open doors to investors from any non-EU country with special tax and other incentives.

    Of course there is a lot more than the 5 points above – but the TRNC needs to be looking at alternatives and it needs to show the GCs that their failure to negotiate in ‘good faith’ will not stifle the TCs potential. Then and only then will the GCs realise the game is up!

    If you want more – perhaps a strategic plan – then Mal it will require a lot of analysis and ‘blue sky thinking’.

    Enjoy

    #3309
11. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 4:47 pm

    Here the Looner goes again. Unsubstantiated ALLEGED promises made to the “trnc” by the EU in 2004 . Can one presume that such promises were made in writing and not in some sort of an off cuff remark by a junior EU Official. Where on earth do you get this information from that you present as fact !! You decline to accept my deeds for my land in the occupied part referring to them in your usual arrogant yobish fashion as ALEGED !! Yet the rubbish that you put forward must be accepted as facts , no alleged crap. !!
    You continue with more nonsense such as these ! “It should be clear that after 2004 neither the EU nor the GCs have acted in good faith.”"
    May we have an example of this wicked G/C way or indeed the EU !!
    Plonker , you are out of your depth , you have not got the slightest idea as to how a debate should be contacted , hence you leave me with no alternative than to call your bluff !!
    Any credible links to your ludicrous ALLEGED rubbish ??

    #3311
12. Emir Soler

    31/01/2010 at 4:49 pm

    15th of November 2009
    President Abdullah Gul said “Turkey, being the motherland and a country having guarantor status, will continue to back Turkish Cypriot people’s struggle for freedom and welfare.”
    “I once again congratulate your anniversary and wish a peaceful, secure and prosperous future to my Turkish Cypriot brothers,” he said.
    Gul said that the views that the Cyprus federation should be subject of an evolution. “The entire world should know that Turkish Cypriots would never be in a minority status in the island”

    #3312
13. Emir Soler

    31/01/2010 at 4:53 pm

    yiannis savvides@ “ALLEGED promises”???
    ‘
    By William Horsley
    BBC European affairs correspondent
    Tuesday, 27 April, 2004, 00:37 GMT 01:37 UK
    After their overwhelming “yes” vote in the referendum on Cyprus unification, Europe has been quick to reward Turkish Cypriots.
    The Greek Cypriot “no” to the unification plan has been greeted with international dismay.
    But the EU’s new policy points to swift and real benefits for their northern neighbours.
    And it marks a positive landmark in the long history of the Cyprus dispute.
    The European commissioner for enlargement, Guenter Verheugen, made clear after a meeting with EU foreign ministers in Luxembourg that the acceptance by the Turkish Cypriots of the UN-sponsored plan for unification would mean an end to their international isolation.

    #3313
14. Emir Soler

    31/01/2010 at 4:59 pm

    yiannis savvides@ “ALLEGED promises”???

    27/04/2004 19:06:19
    BRUSSELS (ANA V. Demiris) EU Commission for enlargement Guenter Verheugen on Tuesday cited the Unions intention to open an office in the occupied part of Nicosia in order control future financial assistance to the Turkish Cypriot community.

    Speaking here during joint session of the European Parliaments foreign affairs committee with the EU-Cyprus parliamentary committee, Verheugen referred to the need for direct cooperation with the Turkish Cypriots,

    #3314
15. Malcolm Channing

    31/01/2010 at 5:29 pm

    @ Moover:
    I personally hope the time comes soon for TRNC to go it alone, if there is no settlement in the next few months. Being in limbo so long has led to a lot of lazy practices which are damaging its image. It is currently not a place to seriously invest, in my opinion, but just looking at lira based tourism at a time when Turkish resorts are suffering from runaway inflation. It’s a golden opportunity which I fear is going to be lost waiting for some non-existent deal that solves everything?

    #3315
16. Malcolm Channing

    31/01/2010 at 5:33 pm

    Emir Soler wrote: The European commissioner for enlargement, Guenter Verheugen, made clear after a meeting with EU foreign ministers in Luxembourg that the acceptance by the Turkish Cypriots of the UN-sponsored plan for unification would mean an end to their international isolation.
    
    Emir, you beat me to it.

    #3316
17. Moover

    31/01/2010 at 5:39 pm

    Yawn…Yawn..Yawnnniiisss:

    I was brought up to respect my elder and given your age – you are a lot older than me – but mentally puerile so you don’t qualify

    Tell me “IN THIS FANTASY WORLD OF YOURS, DO YOU HAVE ANY MAGICAL POWERS OR ARE YOU JUST THE VILLAGE IDIOT”

    If you do not know the fact of this promise you only prove what I have been saying to you all along – you are ignorant of your own history and fired up by greed and anger built of frustration that after 35 years you still have got nowt of your alleged property / land.

    Now educate yourself – I’d call you a bafoon but I would not want to insult bafoons!

    Timesonline:

    http://www.bcglocations.com/trnc/trnc_overview.html

    TRNC Info (of course you will not trust this but it is still here for you to read)

    http://www.trncinfo.com/TANITMADAIRESI/ARSIV2004/ENGLISHarcive/SEPTEMBER/130904.htm

    European Commissioner for Enlargement Günter Verheugen: I feel cheated by the Greek Cypriot government… There is a shadow now over the accession of Cyprus. What we will seriously consider now is finding a way to end the economic isolation of the Turkish Cypriots.

    http://www.topix.com/forum/world/cyprus/T19HFUKQFTRKVBMV8

    http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/51984/schroeder-called-for-economic-isolation-of-trnc-to-end.html

    And there are many more – just google it – and you’ll find it – of course I assume you know how to do that

    Now when you have finished reading – I expect an apology – but I will not be holding my breadth

    Enjoy

    #3317
18. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 5:40 pm

    Emir , are you therefore concurring with the Turkish Presidents remarks ie President Abdullah Gul said “Turkey, being the motherland”
    If Turkey is your motherland how on earth can you insist on rotating presidency when the T/C president would consider NOT CYPRUS but Turkey as his motherland.
    I have on numerous occasions asked G/C and T/C who consider foreign countries as their motherland to go join them , simple close to the bosom of mama.

    As for the statements that you attribute on comments and promises by EU officials , can you provide a link to your source rather than just copy paste !
    Go on Emir , this is how debates are carried out , provide link and please Im talking about a link not one from some third world propaganda machine.
    Lets go Emir !
    ps. May I ask you the same question I posed to many Cypriots before , is Cyprus your motherland or is it Turkey ?

    #3318
19. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 5:42 pm

    Malcolm , as I said to Emir can we please have a link to this statement ?

    #3319
20. Troodo

    31/01/2010 at 5:44 pm

    On the CY Forum I have on many occasions…

    yiannis savvides, so you are one of the kindergarten boys, that explains things.

    #3320
21. Troodo

    31/01/2010 at 5:46 pm

    On the CY Forum I have on many occasions…

    So, you are one of the kindergarten boys, that explains things.

    #3321
22. Moover

    31/01/2010 at 5:46 pm

    Mal:

    You are correct.

    Too much time wasted on so called negotiations and too little effort to build a sustainable alternative.

    The Oramses case is a wake-up call for the TCs that the GCs have really no intent for a compromise – “they want it all and they want it their way” (a BIG mistake by the GCs in my view) and my guess is that subject to Turkey’s perspective – when these talks fail – there will be a concerted effort to change the direction of the TRNC!

    Let’s see

    Enjoy

    #3322
23. Malcolm Channing

    31/01/2010 at 5:50 pm

    yiannis savvides wrote:Malcolm , as I said to Emir can we please have a link to this statement
    
    Moover has added the links. I was in contact with European Commissioner for Enlargement Günter Verheugen in 2004 and he was extremely angry with Papadopolous preventing him from speaking on GC TV just before the referendum. Perhaps he was a little naive to have trusted such a seasoned politician.

    #3323
24. Moover

    31/01/2010 at 5:53 pm

    Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:

    I see you’ve set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public.

    You’ve got the links Yawnnniiisss – how many more times will you ask for the same thing? – Now just click and read – or is that too much for you?

    Enjoy

    #3324
25. Malcolm Channing

    31/01/2010 at 5:57 pm

    yiannis savvides wrote: if Turkey is your motherland how on earth can you insist on rotating presidency when the T/C president would consider NOT CYPRUS but Turkey as his motherland
    
    YS, I hope this does not come as a shock to you but many people have TWO parents. Their mother gave birth to them and they followed the ways of their father. YS I know you live and vote in the UK and could even qualify to become PM but answer me this, if the UK invaded south Cyprus would you join the EOKA again and kill British soldiers?

    #3325
26. kyriacos

    31/01/2010 at 6:14 pm

    Malclom

    The answer is No, i don’t mind if a CypriotTurk becomes president- if he really cares about cyprus and not Turkey- If he is indeed a Cypriot and not a Turk. But by todays standards i must admit i cannot see that happening any time soon. Not even TC are true cypriots any more. (I mean the majority of them not all of them) For me they are just too attached to Turkey to be Real cypriots. Do you know a TC that would Burn a turkish Flag just like some GC do with the Greek Flags? ANd the Ultimate proof to my say is in fact the existence of the cyprus problem. So there you go..
    But theoretically if one day a Turkish Cypriot inspired me to vote for him yes i would certainly vote for the guy, why not? I mean isn’t it the same in Britain? would you vote for a taliban with a british passport that spills out poison about England and the Brits? Of course not. But if he was a nice British-muslim guy that truly inspired you with his arguments, Then Why not?

    As a matter of fact A non GC cypriot its not the first time to be elected by GCypriots. Marios KArogian the leader of the Democratic party is infact Armenian. There are many examples of Greek Cypriots voting a non GC if they think he is OK. Further more in a municipality that i know even a Romanian guy got elected that did not even speak greek. Eu laws Are Laws you cannot just ignore them..

    But the thing is … you do realize that Cyprus is an island with a population of 700 people right?, and at the same time Turkey is a vast country with population of 80 million people, Its common sense that some measures must be taken here, otherwise the demographics of the island will be hugely affected and violence might be triggered.

    This kind of regulations are not a new thing, each country according to EU regulations can only accommodate a certain amount of Eu citizen’s not infinite. Further more Britain + Germany as we talk Have some restrictions on Free-movement of Bulgarian and Romanian people Just for Britain + Germany. You do know that right?

    Eu – Turkey does not mean Turks or any other people what so ever eu-conquering cyprus. The citizens of a country must always CARE about the country they actually live in .
    Demographics must always be respected (for now). Maybe 200 years from now we would live in a truly united european country that we will all actually care about.

    ///////////////
    NOw..
    . On how will EU force Turkey to comply with Eu laws and Human rights just by using economic penalties and not direct force?,

    Its simple mate, The same Way EU is Forcing the rest of the countries, Its not that complicate really..

    Each european country has some obligations against the community and at the same time has some benefits, If an EU country does not comply with an EU court decision Then that country looses some of its benefits, In simple words That country looses money by loosing funds mate..
    in addition there are some other ways (fines – or Lending with a higher rate)
    REally i think there are lots of ways for the eu to force some democratic Reformations on a country.

    #3327
27. Emir Soler

    31/01/2010 at 6:20 pm

    Confused? so do I.
    This was the UN resolution for the birth of TRNC

    RESOLUTION 541 (1983)

    Adopted by the Security Council
    on 18 November 1983

    The Security Council,

    Article

    6. Calls upon all States to respect the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and non-alignment of the Republic of Cyprus;

    It’s clearly shows. “And non-alignment”
    ‘
    Following year RoC join the EU

    Does this means, above resolution is Void?

    #3328
28. Malcolm Channing

    31/01/2010 at 6:41 pm

    kyriacos wrote: Do you know a TC that would Burn a turkish Flag
    
    a lot more than you would imagine. There is a lot of animosity between Turks and TCs, we have written on NCFP about the outcry against Turkification and I’ve talked to Anatolian Turks whilst in Turkey.
    Back in 1878 the Brits were cheered when they took over Cyprus, I’ve read the Times newspaper from that date. It didn’t take long for that to change. The same in the north. TCs want their own state, they don’t want GCs or Turks to rule them just like you didn’t want us Brits or the Ottomans to rule you. Is that a surprise to you? I understand you don’t want them having more than 20% of Cyprus but that amount I believe in negotiable.

    #3329
29. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 6:46 pm

    Looner
    Let us just see what the link that you provided so eagerly and rather stupidly says on the ALLEGED promises to the “TRNC” by the EU .
    TIMES ON LINE :
    “The EU has, however, signalled that it is keen to seek ways to end the economic isolation of the Turkish Cypriot state.”

    Is this what constitutes an EU promise ???
    Mr Plonker , the RoC is also keen to seek ways to end the economic isolation of our small minority of compatriots who are still in the occupied areas of Cyprus.
    So here you are rushing to add your ALLEGED expertice on the matter and instead you , right now , have made a fool of your self !
    Who is the village idiot Plonker ?

    As for this gem , I cant stop laughing Im spilling my wine !!
    Turkish source , don’t make me laugh , is that where you and rest got the notion that the EU reneged on its promises to the “trnc”
    Lets see it anyway : “Prime Minister Talat in an interview given to the UK daily “The Financial Times” stated that the EU had not kept its promise given to North Cyprus after the April 23 referendum.”"

    Any more ..sources and links that you may dig up please post them and make an even a bigger fool than you already are.
    Let us just see the type of a debater that you are .You pathetically at every opportunity deride my name , a bid like Mr Brown in the Houses of Commons referring to David as as my right honerabloyishe KANGAROO. !!

    Mate you are what you are , accept it and …moever on , an English yob without the slightest detection of class , unsophisticated , probably a perv too !!
    Enjoy your defeat Plonker !!

    #3330
30. Malcolm Channing

    31/01/2010 at 6:48 pm

    Emir Soler wrote: Calls upon all States to respect the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and non-alignment of the Republic of Cyprus
    
    I wondered where the reasoning for calling the RoC “south Cyprus” had come from. Non-alignment as in “not allied with any other nation or bloc; neutral.” So the GCs defied a UN resolution and got away with it!

    #3331
31. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 6:52 pm

    Malcolm , that is an odd question and one that I should really ignore but coming from you I will reply.
    Britain is my adopted country . Britain will never invade Cyprus so I shall never face that stark decision , bearing in mind that there are thousands of Anglo- Cypriots such as my children who are half Cypriot and half English . A hypothetically and extraordinarily grotesque scenario.

    #3332
32. Moover

    31/01/2010 at 6:53 pm

    Kyriacos:

    Your assumption is that Turkey wants to join the EU – I believe the jury is out on that! Regarding limitations on the free movement of EU citizens – you should know that the ‘exceptions’ for how Romanians and Bulgarians have been treated by some members of the EU is ONLY for a limited period. The fundamental law of the EU is ‘free movement for all’. So if Turkey were to join (a big IF) – you could NOT stop the Turks coming to Cyprus forever – it maybe ‘allowed’ as an exception for a limited period – but that is all!

    As for the Cyprus issue – I would take my hat off to you with respects to your sentiments that you would vote for a TC if he / she was the better candidate – if only more GC were as enlightened as you on this point.

    However, the reality is that the best chance was in 2004 and it is highly improbable that another agreement will be reached and even if it is reached – it is more unlikely than ever that both sides would approve it in a referendum!

    If I was to be brutally honest – I would say that the ‘only’ viable solution would be a ‘velvet divorce’. Two independent states and then if the TRNC applied to join the EU that should be considered on the merit of its application.

    The present half way house is as I have said before like being ‘slightly pregnant – inconceivale and yet the current reality’.

    I cannot see the GC giving up land and property for peace and security and reconciliation. I cannot see TCs trusting the GCs given the history of the island and in particular after the debacle of 2004, when the GC got in via the back door and the EU renegaded on its obligations to TCs.

    Enjoy

    #3333
33. Malcolm Channing

    31/01/2010 at 6:55 pm

    yiannis savvides wrote: I cant stop laughing Im spilling my wine !!
    
    That explains your difficulty in understanding. Perhaps this BBC link will be more acceptable to you http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3656753.stm

    #3334
34. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 6:56 pm

    Emir , mate dont make your self look silly .
    Cyprus also joined the Commonwealth , as well as many other International organizations.
    I’m pleased however to have noted your apparent distaste of the loss of sovereignty by the RoC over the occupied parts.

    #3335
35. Malcolm Channing

    31/01/2010 at 7:00 pm

    yiannis savvides wrote: Britain will never invade Cyprus so I shall never face that stark decision
    
    That isn’t a no then. If GCs were to invade its sovereign territory there I’m sure the British wouldn’t stand by and let them. I’m afraid there is no such thing as never in international politics.

    #3336
36. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 7:07 pm

    Malcolm , the BBC link states that ” The EU has signalled that it will seek ways to end the economic isolation of the Turkish Cypriot state.”

    Would you not agree that the EU in signalling that it will seek ways to …… must be seen in the light of events following the democratic decision taken by the G/Cs to reject the AP .
    If the EU could legally end the isolation it would have done so by now , this statement was also made after both referendums were held.
    I’m still waiting proof of the ALLEGED promises by the EU to the T/Cs to encourage them to vote for the plan.The fact of the matter is that no such promises were ever made , the position of the EU is much the same and I would say identical to that of the RoC STATED POSITION.
    To reach an agreement firstly the occupation must end. The settlers issue must be addressed , Turkeys intransigence in continuing to insist on guarantor status must come to end , the G/C people will NEVER accept the occupier being given legal rights to intervene anywhere in Cyprus.
    We can carry on , can the pseudo state carry on ?
    Forget the nonsense by Looner on investments pouring in from non- EU nations , we can take them on too , all must have assets within the EU , and do bear in mind we have lawyers that make Mrs Greedy Blair look like the amateur she is .

    #3337
37. Malcolm Channing

    31/01/2010 at 7:09 pm

    yiannis savvides wrote: Cyprus also joined the Commonwealth
    
    in 1961! A 1983 UN resolution could hardly have been asking them to cancel their subscription to the commonwealth? Gawd Blimey, did they do Cyprus history when you were at school? I forgot, you left in the 60s didn’t you.

    #3339
38. Malcolm Channing

    31/01/2010 at 7:13 pm

    yiannis savvides wrote: Malcolm , the BBC link states that ” The EU has signalled that it will seek ways to end the economic isolation of the Turkish Cypriot state.”
    
    Perhaps you should read it all and not cherry pick. If a sign said “do not park here” you would argue that it said “park here”.

    The EU’s commissioner for expansion, Guenter Verheugen, was more blunt.

    “There is a shadow now over the accession of Cyprus,” he told Germany’s ARD television.

    “What we will seriously consider now is finding a way to end the economic isolation of the Turkish Cypriots.”

    Alvaro de Soto, the UN envoy who worked on the failed peace plan for nearly five years, said his office would close in the coming weeks.

    Asked how he felt, he told the Associated Press, “I would have to bite my tongue.”

    #3340
39. Emir Soler

    31/01/2010 at 7:30 pm

    yiannis savvides@
    I am right, you are wrong.
    Read it again.

    #3342
40. kyriacos

    31/01/2010 at 7:34 pm

    There is a huge difference in not liking an anatolian turk that takes your job and not liking TUrkey as a country cause you feel Cypriot . I never heard about an actual case of A TC that Burned a Turkish Flag. In contrast just this year in North cyprus GreekC. vandalized about 20 Greek flags.
    i mean.. i ‘ve visited ‘Trnc’ quite a few times, All i see is Turkish flags and Kemal statues, lots of them. (like if Kemal had anything to do with Cypurs.)
    But I really do hope you are right about that mate.. Anyone who is willing to burn the flag of his mother land is sure welcomed here by me.

    Now about that TC state..

    Sure why not, it seems like a good idea.. but they still need to allow the refugees to go back to their homes… I mean Its ok if they just wanted to run things their way, No one really cares about that. But you cannot just confiscate a land thats not yours. Sure do your thing, run things your way, elect your president/ who said different?? but leave refugees alone and respect our human rights like you want us to respect yours, thats all we ask for 35 years.. but who cares..
    Unfortunately common sense is just not the case for cyprus.

    #3343
41. Troodo

    31/01/2010 at 7:45 pm

    But you cannot just confiscate a land thats not yours.

    kyriacos. Why not, the GC’s do it?

    #3345
42. Malcolm Channing

    31/01/2010 at 7:48 pm

    kyriacos wrote:I never heard about an actual case of A TC that Burned a Turkish Flag
    
    They’re hardly likely to be burning flags and shouting for the Turks to go home are they.
    I know you don’t believe there would be ethnic tension in Cyprus if the Green Line was to disappear but many people do. I think letting 200,000 GCs move back up north might be a little provocative.

    #3346
43. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 7:52 pm

    Malcolm , do I understand correctly that you think Cyprus has contravened a UN resolution by joining the EU ?????

    #3347
44. Moover

    31/01/2010 at 7:58 pm

    Yawn…Yawn…Yawnnniiisss:

    Do you have to work very hard at being a *****, or does it just come naturally?

    I gave you several links and as per your usual GC ploy you just select one that is a little grey and ask for more?

    Talk about being a real jerk?

    Up until now it was a little bit of fun…and I thought you may possess some basic common sense – but it seems that I was sadly mistaken. AH like you is the main reason why GC will never get their alleged land and property – because no one will ever trust you.

    Glad that POSSESSION IS 9/10THS OF THE LAW….IF YOU WANT IT – COME AND GET IT – GC COWARDS!

    Seems the more you speak the more anal rententive you sound! May be the aliens forget to remove your anal probe?

    Just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt – if that’s possible!

    Enjoy

    #3348
45. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 8:01 pm

    Like it or not Plonkers , the RoC is the ONLY nation recognized the world over. Its sovereignty extends to each single inch of the Cypriot land . The fact that the RoC can not exercise domestic jurisdiction over the occupied areas does not mean that the occupying Turkish army and the thousands of Anatolian peasants can sell our lands and properties to the British and other cheapskates as confirmed by the Orams case.
    You Buy at your own risk , you will be sued and you will be made to pay.
    The Orams have said goodbye to their dream , you will do so next.

    Having been given nothing to support the claim that the EU reneged
    on its promises to the pseudo state I now declare that the village idiots have been defeated.

    #3349
46. Troodo

    31/01/2010 at 8:06 pm

    yiannis savvides. Get back in your play pen sonny and enough of threats.

    #3350
47. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 8:06 pm

    Looner , I already dealt with your alleged links ! Plonker you gave me sweet fa , the Times on line had this to say : “The EU has, however, signalled that it is keen to seek ways to end the economic isolation of the Turkish Cypriot state.”
    Does the above contain a promise made either before or after the referendum ?
    As for the other sources you provided , ie Mr Talat’s statement , what can I say Plonker ..
    Mate don,t be a village idiot all your life you are doing a disservice to the British nation . Grow up yob !

    #3351
48. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 8:08 pm

    Troodo , bet you are s..ng yourself mate , you could be next !!

    #3352
49. Moover

    31/01/2010 at 8:16 pm

    Mal:

    I agree. Not just provocative but absurd in the extreme!

    There is absolutely no way that 200,000 GC will ever be allowed to return to the TRNC! The best the GC can hope for is a political settlement that gives them peace, security and reconciliation – some land maybe traded against that lost by the TCs down south and a compensation package for the rest. It will, in my opinion end up as two separate states – with a peace arrangements guaranteed by the international community.

    Anyone who thinks that 200k GC moving in to the TRNC is a realistic prospect needs not only their head examined but should be put down quietly out of kindness! That is why the GCs taking cases to the EU and UK courts is a bit absurd. They have got some publicity and a little pocket change from ex-pats – but have they got the land? Is the villa demolished? Has Mr A returned to Lapta?

    They’ll get more value from the IPC – but if GC believe that the TCs will simply walk away from their homes in the TRNC – they are sadly mistaken if not off thier ‘rocker’!

    As an aside Mr A has allegedly his ‘family home’ in the TRNC currently occupied by a TC according to ROC media. If he had such an attachement to his land one would have thought that the ‘old family home’ would have more sentimental value than 10% of land that was a lemon orchard and subsequently divided and sold to ex-pats -Oramses and other TCs. Mr A chose to sue the Oramses – Why?

    Answer: The move was political and not sentimental. All that sentimental garbage he espoused to the courts was at best made up. He wanted together with the ROC property companies and the ROC government to find a way to undermine thr TRNC economy. In the short run they will succeed – but in the medium term the TRNC will find ways around it and then what?

    The GCs are myopic and greedy.

    They do not want a Political settlement, peace, reconciliation – they want a Cyprus free of TCs.

    On this count as on all the other avenues they have tried they have and they will fail.

    Enjoy

    #3353
50. Malcolm Channing

    31/01/2010 at 8:50 pm

    yiannis savvides wrote: Troodo , bet you are s..ng yourself mate , you could be next !!
    
    as I said to K, there’s a lot of tension between TCs and GCs so allowing 200,000 GCs back into the north, once they’ve had a couple of bottle of vino, it’ll be back to 1963. Mind you, some have never left.

    #3355
51. Troodo

    31/01/2010 at 8:59 pm

    yiannis savvides. Your pathological hatred of all Turks show you are unwell. Better ask nanny to take you to a shrink.

    #3356
52. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 8:59 pm

    Looner
    Here you go again making absurd statements based entirely on your own misconceptions and prejudices. Who gave you the idea that 200 thousand G/Cs would want to move back to the occupied lands once a solution is agreed upon .The vast majority of the refugees have made a new life in the free parts of the Republic with families and commitments , personal and work.What we do most definately want is demilitarised island with the great majority of Anatolian settlers sent back ,Turkish troops out , our properties to be made available to us just as the properties of the T/Cs in the free parts made available now not in six months as its now required by the RoC .
    A political solution is the only available option and the sooner Turkey realizes this the better .

    #3357
53. yiannis savvides

    31/01/2010 at 9:07 pm

    Troodo , I should not realy be bothering answering to a retard , but here we go.
    In my family there is , for the last 25 years , a T/C .
    Some of my closest friends are T/Cs , they too incidenatly consider the Turkish troops to be occupying troops.
    Now genius what gave you the idea that I hate T/Cs , because for the last 4 years I have been visiting Cancer Tulip in Nicosia in order to make available to them funds that I organize and collect in London.
    The T/C lady who runs the organization has met me many times , knows of my views regarding the role of the Turkish troops in Cyprus and she understands my unwavering support for a united Cyprus where all Cypriots are part of the majority , where all Cypriots have Cyprus as the common denominator and common motherland.
    Don’t make stupid comments when you know nothing about me.

    #3358
54. kyriacos

    31/01/2010 at 10:18 pm

    Mover:
    Why not, the GC’s do it?

    …when exactly?

    on the 60s my ancestors did not confiscate anything.. they just pillaged a little bit..
    either way i am not responsible for their acts am i?

    #3359
55. Troodo

    31/01/2010 at 10:40 pm

    yiannis savvides I bet she does not know about your vitriol comments in the forums. Perhaps I should point her in that direction – this is a small place you know. Greeks baering gifts spring to mind.

    #3360
56. Troodo

    31/01/2010 at 10:42 pm

    yiannis savvides Your threats are groundless. The GC’s will never take a TC to court, it will open too many cans of worms and expose you as the racist hypocrites you are.

    #3361
57. kyriacos

    31/01/2010 at 10:56 pm

    Malcolm, in contrary, i think is even more provocative if just a single one refugee is prohibited to return home. Actually even Annan plan had that part cleared out. Right the next day after reunification the remaining refugees (Those that are not yet dead already) had the right to return home just the next day after the fundamental agreement had taken place. The problem was with their ancestors. (me for example) i was going to be permanently denied of the only property that i legally own this planet.. You do realize there is a huge ethical dilemma here don’t you M?, cause really who is it gonna be left behind? with what criteria? who is gonna decide who is getting his property back and who does not? And why am i being denied my property? Just so that ‘trnc’ can give it away to some anatolian turk? is this fair? – i think not.
    Its funny how some people cry out for equal rights while at the same time They want to deny the rights of others.

    ofcourse i am not talking about 200.000 GC just float the North part from on day to another. ofcourse they need to be some time schedules of some sort there. But finally in time and If everything is ok. Then the long term plan can only be full reunification and restoration of human rights for all cypriots.. You can’t that easily just be selective on those things..

    I mean even if i did got the right to return. Who am i to vote against someone else’s right to return home?

    #3362
58. kyriacos

    31/01/2010 at 11:10 pm

    I by the way agree that GC should not take tc to court, it will indeed open too many cans of worms. And further more is pointless. What for to perceive this kind of action really? Other than plain revenge of some sort. We already won that case (Titina loizidou VS Turkey) we have already established our Rights on the North with that case.

    Unfortunately there is a movement of lawyers that see Cyprus problem as a legal problem and one can say they practically exploit refugee’s despair..
    But we live in a free country aren’t we?. The government cant just stop individuals to take legal actions.

    #3363
59. Garry Hoder

    31/01/2010 at 11:21 pm

    Hello Mal,
    This is your old buddy from the U.S.A. Just checking in. It sounds like your Al Downing and some of the others are like our Obama and Pelousi. They like to do things behind closed doors. Then they tell you a lie about what the meeting was about. I think all of them all over the world are forgetting they are suppose to be working for us and not us for them. I am hoping this year we are going to send them all a message.

    Don’t know much about the EU but if they are anything like the UN it’s like putting tits on a bore hog. They are just plain useless. Hope the problems get worked out for the good of the people. We all need to let our voices be heard and let them know that “we all” are fed up with the lot of them. We put them in and they try to run over us. Payback is going to be Hell. Either here or the hereafter. I think they all forget that. Keep up the great newspaper.

    your friend
    Garry

    #3364
60. Troodo

    01/02/2010 at 6:25 am

    Problem is Garry, the EU is not a democracy, the commissioners and now the president are unelected by the people and cannot be voted out by the people. Corrupt is it not?

    #3374
61. Get Real!

    01/02/2010 at 6:42 am

    Troodo, the “TRNC” is the MOTHER of corruption with mass murders, rapes, and the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Cypriots at its very foundation, and you’re worrying about the EU being “corrupt”?

    #3378
62. yiannis savvides

    01/02/2010 at 7:09 am

    Troodo
    Which SHE and witch vitriol comments ?
    Once again you are talking gibberish nonsense .
    If by vitriolic comments you mean my intense dislike of criminals and accessories to crime such as the cheapskates then I must be guilty.
    How dare you in full knowledge of the political circumstances surrounding Cyprus invest in my ” stolen” property , the Orams found out that there are legal processes that the G/Cs will prosecute with sufficient ferocity in order to establish beyond a shadow of a doubt that law and order will reign supreme even in occupied Cyprus.
    Your mate , The Looner who constantly tells us that our deeds to our properties are “alleged” and that finders are keepers is the one that you should be addressing your comments on vitriolic posts against.
    Amongst other cheapskates you persist in perpetuating the myth created by the occupier as a means of justifying the invasion , you persist in peddling the nonsense of a massacre taking place , you have not the slightest idea as to the number of inter-communal victims of violence and neither do you know the number of T/C and G/C fatalities yet you maintain along with the other brainless cheapskates that had Turkey not invaded the T/Cs would have been annihilated , funny isn’t it that right now Turkey IS annihilating the T/Cs , no longer T/Cs but Turks of Cyprus.
    Do some reading Plonker and not Turkish propaganda such as the link that Looner provided of Mr Talat dealing with EU non existent promises on recognition !

    #3386
63. Troodo

    01/02/2010 at 7:39 am

    Watch out yiannis, your about to choke on your self-righteous crap.

    #3394
64. Troodo

    01/02/2010 at 7:49 am

    When Turkey intervened the Greek Cypriots had forced the Turkish Cypriots into enclaves and were denying them their basic human rights, of freedom of movement, accepted a one-way ticket out of Cyprus. Exactly the same as the Nazis did to the Jews. Now they tell the world this never happened and they love their Turkish Cypriot brothers. If you try to say that about the Nazis, you can be thrown in jail. It would seem even today a Turkish Cypriot has no human rights. The world leaders should bow their heads in shame.

    #3396
65. Troodo

    01/02/2010 at 8:00 am

    Put yourself in the position of a fifteen year old boy laying in a field at night, trying to protect his loved-ones from marauding Greeks – then tell me you have a right to return.

    #3397
66. Moover

    01/02/2010 at 8:01 am

    Get Real:

    You said:

    “Troodo, the “TRNC” is the MOTHER of corruption with mass murders, rapes, and the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Cypriots at its very foundation, and you’re worrying about the EU being “corrupt”?

    Seems like you got the TRNC confused with the ROC – happens easily when you don’t engage what passes as your brain before you type!

    The GCs would even ‘F**k their own people for a piece of land / property. It has been their way throughout their history! Talk about and Oedipus Complex, (No, Get Real – that is not a new resort in the ROC)

    Enjoy

    #3398
67. yiannis savvides

    01/02/2010 at 9:02 am

    Nonsense , the T/C were kept in enclaves by the TMT /Grey wolves .
    Strange though would you not agree that is very odd that 6 years prior to Turkey invading there was no conflict.
    In fact the number of fatalities as a result of the conflict was much less than a thousand and at almost the same number from both sides .
    Now I will provide you with an independent link perhaps you may like to also do your own research before using your rear orifice to make comments !

    #3401
68. Get Real!

    01/02/2010 at 12:24 pm

    Troodo: “When Turkey intervened the Greek Cypriots had forced the Turkish Cypriots into enclaves”

    No they did not… you just made that up so why do you lie?

    From the Secretary-General of the UN:

    “The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots”

    UN document (S/6426).

    It looks like you owe an apology to all readers for misleading them by propagating misinformation…

    #3427
69. Troodo

    01/02/2010 at 1:11 pm

    Get Real and yiannis savvides. Your answers are so predictable. That is why it is so pointless debating anything with you GC’s, Gormless Clowns, and more useful showing outsiders what lying dangerous fools you are.
    Any evidence contrary to your narrow view is lies and propaganda. Eyewitness accounts mean nothing to you, and any documents and photographic evidence, you state are a fabrication. Now you have the audacity to suggest that the TC’s forced themselves into the enclaves through their own choice – I think the Nazis came up with that one also.
    Perhaps I can assist you in your ramble and suggest the TC’s chucked themselves down the wells and covered themselves with earth to keep warm.

    #3429
70. Get Real!

    01/02/2010 at 1:34 pm

    Troodo,

    So the UN Secretary-General; who had been kept informed about incidents all over Cyprus by the authorized UNFICYP for an entire year, and finally summarized the situation on Cyprus with this conclusion didn’t know what he was talking about but you do!

    What could possibly be more damning on the entire planet than the UN Secretary-General’s report of the situation???

    You incompetent nincompoop… you’ve got no legs to stand on!

    #3432
71. polly

    01/02/2010 at 1:45 pm

    TROODO

    It is well known that if someone repeats something often enough
    their lies become their truth. Nothing you can say or do can
    change such a mindset. You certainly cannot say that the people
    you mentioned havent repeated their lies again..again…again..
    again..again. Be assurred the rational people who post here know
    you speak the truth. Try as they may they cannot sanitise or change the truth neither can they accept it.

    There you are Pikee another arse I kissed today. I say that with love.

    #3436
72. Troodo

    01/02/2010 at 2:16 pm

    Polly, I know. I do not post on here for them.

    #3446
73. Troodo

    01/02/2010 at 2:23 pm

    Get Real.
    The last UN Sectary-Gereral Annan’s report has still not been read to the UN or entered into there record. It was blocked by the Roc and their Turk hating friends – I wonder why?

    #3448
74. Troodo

    01/02/2010 at 2:44 pm

    Malcolm , at the risk of repeating my self let me state once more my position and that of the vast majority of Cypriot citizens.

    yiannis savvides.
    By vast majority of Cypriot citizens you have to mean Greek Cypriots. Why don’t you say so? And by the way, not all Greek Cypriots follow your misconceived line.

    #3453
75. yiannis savvides

    01/02/2010 at 3:01 pm

    Troodo , Im on record on more than one occasion saying that the T/Cs faced two vicious enemies.
    Enemy number one was KMT /GREY WOOLVES .
    Enemy number two was EOKA B .
    The victims of both of these extremists were the innocent men women and children.
    I recommend that you obtain Sevgul Uludags book , Oysters with the missing pearls ”
    Sevgul is a well respected Turkish Cypriot journalist and author , do yourself a favour instead of posting your usual nonsense go get the book.
    PS. I consider the Turkish Cypriots to have the same rights to Cyprus as I and all other G/Cs have . I do not see them as a minority but as a part of the Cypriot people , however those that consider Turkey as their nationhood ougth to do some serious thinking .
    Most of the T/Cs that I know are Cypriots first and foremost .

    #3457
76. Troodo

    01/02/2010 at 3:10 pm

    I consider the Turkish Cypriots to have the same rights to Cyprus as I and all other G/Cs have . I do not see them as a minority but as a part of the Cypriot people ,

    That’s nice yiannis, try telling that to your Cyprus forum buddies

    #3459
77. Get Real!

    01/02/2010 at 5:00 pm

    Troodo: “The last UN Sectary-Gereral Annan’s report has still not been read to the UN or entered into there record. It was blocked by the Roc and their Turk hating friends – I wonder why?”

    Debate doesn’t work like that because:

    1. You’re attempting to divert the subject.

    2. You’re doing so with a bunch of new allegations without supplying any credible evidence to back them.

    3. You’re finally asking a question based on all the above unsubstantiated assumptions as though they’re fact!

    I therefore can’t take your post any further.

    #3480
78. Troodo

    01/02/2010 at 5:18 pm

    Oh real you are funny.

    1. You’re attempting to divert the subject. – I am asking what credence the guy has, when his predecessor was ignored.

    2. You’re doing so with a bunch of new allegations without supplying any credible evidence to back them. – So show me one piece of evidence that shows the final Annan report on Cyprus was read to the UN or entered in the records.

    3. You’re finally asking a question based on all the above unsubstantiated assumptions as though they’re fact! – see above

    I therefore can’t take your post any further.- Not checkmate surely.

    #3483