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Thunderbox on 
Pauline Read on Apostilides judgement about to backfire on GCs?
Meletis Apostolides’ Orams judgement established one fact of law in the EU, if you trespass on a Cypriot refugee’s property then you can be made to leave it and to demolish anything built on it. This law applies no matter whoever the trespasser is and that also applies to the government.
After 1974, the south Cyprus government put all TC properties under the guardianship of the Interior Minister and without following proper expropriation procedures, that government took a large amount of TC land for development projects and for refugee estates. This includes the whole of the old Larnaca Airport and a part of the new one. According to the Cyprus Mail, the owner of that land is a TC south Cyprus citizen who lives in Larnaca and has a Cyprus passport and ID card. The government has been paying him a monthly allowance in order to persuade him not to claim his property in the courts. What would happen if he, like Mr A, applied to a Cyprus court and demanded the demolition of the old Larnaca Airport? How can the court reject such an application, given its decision in the Orams case? What about similar public projects the government has undertaken and which would now be contrary to the current EU laws on compulsory purchase? Would this mean a large number of GC refugees forced to do as the Orams have been forced to do. It would be no use them claiming a political reason for them avoiding this action as it never helped the Orams.
Like Apostolides, the owner of Larnaca airport is a Cypriot citizen. Furthermore, what would happen if TCs came to the courts in droves, demanding compensation for loss of use of their properties and restitution? Will the government demolish the refugee estates? If they don’t then the amount of compensation due would have a serious impact on the weakening economy. Many have said that the only way to solve the property problem would be through a political solution and there is a possibility in the south that the government may soon be regretting Mr A’s private prosecution. This is probably the reason they never offered him any help, financial or otherwise.
Source:
Cyprus Mail 14/2/2010 (Makarios Droushiotis)
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Greek Cypriot source added
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http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus/sorry-party-s-over/20100122
‘Sorry the party’s over’
By Stefanos Evripidou
Published on January 22, 2010 +-Text size
FOREIGN TRESPASSERS and illegal developers of Greek Cypriot properties in the north were warned in no uncertain terms yesterday that “the party is over” by the lawyer for Melitis Apostolides in the Orams case.
Constantis Candounas warned that there was “no free ride” anymore for those who exploit Greek Cypriot properties in the north following the victory in the English Court of Appeal on Tuesday. “My only message to trespassers and illegal developers in the north is that the party is over. I’m sorry,” he said.
The English Appeals Court ruled in favour of Apostolides, ordering the Orams to demolish the home they built on his land in Lapithos, return the property and pay back rent (£300 for every month since 2002 plus interest) and legal costs, estimated at around £1.35 million sterling.
The Orams legal team yesterday sought to appeal the decision, which the appellate judges had already ruled was final. “They are trying to argue the inarguable,” said Candounas. They also sought a 42-day stay of execution to see how the decision could be implemented. The authorities in the north have already announced they would not implement the decision.
Candounas told the Cyprus Mail that if the Orams failed to pay what was due, then Apostolides could go after their assets in the UK, following the latest seminal ruling. If they failed to demolish the house and stop trespassing, “then they are in contempt of court and it’s up to the court to decide how to react”.
Greek Cypriot refugee Apostolides said he didn’t take pleasure in the Orams’ suffering or anybody else’s, but that he was trying to get his property and rights back.
“I may not be a politician but I am an active ‘politis’, the Greek word for citizen,” he said, adding, “It’s not about the money anyway. It’s about returning home.
Candounas thanked all those who contributed to the successful outcome of the case, paying special tribute to Achilleas Demetriades, the lawyer for Titina Loizidou, who “opened the way for all of us”.
He also thanked “those who actually chose Cherie Blair (the wife of Tony Blair) to be our counterpart”, noting “she is a brilliant lawyer”.
“No one can claim that the Orams did not have adequate legal representation, they had the best legal assistance money could buy. Mrs Blair has provided for free a publicity that we would have to spend millions of pounds to obtain. She turned this into a high profile case and where people would not have heard of this case now they have heard and are aware of the situation that exists in Cyprus,” he said.
The architect of her appointment was probably a Cypriot, who thought “to appoint the mukhtar’s wife to represent them,” the lawyer added.
Candounas is already working on a new brief, having received instructions from the owners of the Dome Hotel in Kyrenia to sue for trespass 60 tourists who visited the hotel in 2009.
He clarified that “we do not object to the development of tourism in the north, I believe that it should be encouraged but not at the expense of the Greek Cypriots and definitely not in Greek Cypriot properties”.
He called on Turkish Cypriots to reach some arrangement with the real owners of these properties, and in particular with the Castellis family who own the Dome.
“This is not a political thing, this is purely business and I am sure an agreement could be reached between the parties involved,” he said, adding, “There is no intention to stop business in the north, but there is no free ride, the party is over.”
He is also in the process of taking a British couple to court for their use of property in occupied Karmi village, while he has received instructions from Charita Mandoles and her family to institute legal proceedings against the Republic of Turkey in Cyprus courts. When a judgment is obtained, the family will try to have it enforced in Europe, he said.
Replying to questions, Candounas noted that if he wanted to, Apostolides could have sued the Turkish Cypriots living in his house, “because his house is next to the holiday house of the Orams…but he didn’t”.
Apostolides added: “I could understand in some way the Turkish Cypriots living in my house but I could not accept somebody coming from abroad, especially as an investor, speculator, to have more rights on my property than anybody else.”
Asked whether he would sue for trespass the hundreds of Greek Cypriots who frequent casinos in the north built on Greek Cypriot land, Candounas replied: “I’m a lawyer, not one of the three musketeers”.
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The mail says:
“”And now they have to look over their shoulder wherever they go, in case there is a devious Greek Cypriot waiting to hand them a court summons.”"
Not anymore , they would now , the cheapskates , have to subscribe to the RoC official gazette since an announcement in the official government paper is sufficient , no need to confront the offending party in the pseudo state. So all you plonker codgers rush and subscribe !!!!
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Baron Kyri.
Perhaps you should come over to the TRNC instead of bleeting from afar. Concidering the universal state of the housing market in general, houses here are still changing hands and the market is reasonably bouyant. Yes it has suprised me, but if you want to sell and have your Kocan it takes only a few weeks to completion.
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Steady on Dominic you are stirring up the dregs, Larnaca may not be the the best example, but the principle has indeed been established.
The gcs came to claim ancestral homes in Karaman last year, there was no need for the Turkish Army though, a few squirts from garden hoses and their feet didn’t touch the ground. What’s changed?
Troodo,
Most of those properties are being bought by expats moving North to escape the Eurozone.
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tcs could go to the imo and get an estimate for their properties. if they accept the prices the imo givens them Im sure the RoC would be happy to pay up
I still dont see what the tcs properties have to do with the problems ex-pats are having in the north.
maybe another case of of people scratching where they are not itching. Whatever happens to the TC properties, it does not change the case for people like the Orams.
Even with a political solution it is very hard to see how things will change for tresspasers. The ECHR superseeds local constitution/laws when it comes to primary human rights. So even if the involved parties sign a compromising solution I do not see how anyone can be forced to give ownership up.
Perhaps an agreeement that defers right to occupy the property until a solution for current occupiers (with time limits).
This is why the apostolides case is important (as well as loizidou). From first hand knowledge the working committies have not found a way to cirumvent these issues. The GCs of course do not want to compleltely cirumevent them.
Watch for the result of the ECHR appeals court to decide (Demades &others vs turkey) to overcome previous ruling regarding the usage of the IMO. If the ruling of the court is against the use of the IMO, the IMO will be in effect be put out of action (with the exception of some very desperate GCs).
The GCs in their vast majority will not give up their properties in exchange for moneys. This does not mean that they want to return under TCs governance.
Anyway you cut it, the Orams ruling is here to stay….
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I know you like me really Yiannis mate, come on admit it. You only call me names when I touch a nerve, easypeasy never miss,you know I am right
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yiannis savvides I think you need glasses as well as a brain. No mention was made of a booming market, but then that is what you GC’s do best distorting the facts.
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yiannis savvides
since an announcement in the official government paper is sufficient
Why not use the North Korean Peoples Daily to be on the safe side? Your official govenment paper has got holes in it.
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“If you dig a hole for someone else, you’ll fall into it”
‘
That’s what TRNC is saying all along. But who listens? At the end of the day Cyprus needs a political solution.
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YS,
If comeuppance is the best bits we already have it.
It looks like a garden hose is all you need to hang on to it too.
Just make ssure you keep your writs dry, you never know when you might need toilet paper.
Your UK education was wasted, BK has a good excuse for not being able to put a good insult together but I expected better from you.
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YS,
Like I said, you have wasted a UK education.
I do admire the Turkish Army though because they are, well disciplined well trained and well equipped.
But they don’t have to be based in the TRNC, apart from their US smart weapons; they have at least 50 thousand airborne forces that could be in Larnaca and from Turkey quicker than they could drive there from the TRNC border if they wished. Who would stop them or even fire a shot?
Besides it has been proved that a garden hose is all the protection anyone needs against you guys.
p.s. Even your goat is more English than me.
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The old boys network of the ‘Class of 77′ British school Nicosia
(19 years olds) are calling the shots, Turks Cyp school boys kicked out by then, as the green felt pen/line dictated.
How can so many 51 year old men, based in the south, cause so much damage … to a beautiful Island.
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.. with ease, as they had advantage over their mates, who were kicked out of class in 1974, aged only 16 (clever lovely lads }pushed away from their friends and sent to ‘the north’ to start again, with no homes, books, clothes,food, dads probably dead or almost finished off, trying to make sense of it all and feed their kids. Some kids looked after their families, became men too soon, and paid a hefty price .
Cyprus belongs to this lot. and if they have remortgaged and remortgaged as far as Wall Street what next.
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I am only a girly, but I dont understand why the GC’s are having a go at Dominic, there is nothing in his article they cannot read
in the Cyprus Mail, their own English speaking newspaper.
They have shot themselves in the foot, what did we exect,
what’s the worst that can happen, all those naughty cheapskates
and collaborators vill be shot (sorry got carried away) will end
up being kept by the British tax payers, having been fleeced by
the TCs and Turkish builders who knowingly sold them properties and as usual the oldest and weakest will
pay the price. We all know there are no consequences for the actual criminals. The GC’s who caused the need for the Turkish
Army to enter Cyprus will be rewarded for their efforts and
will consider it justice.
Thus it ever was. Fair, of course not but then as my old grandma
used to say ‘fair my girl, whoever told you life was fair’
I shall go and a have a liue down now!!!
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“Furthermore, what would happen if TC’s came to the courts in droves, demanding compensation for loss of use of their properties and restitution?”
How can TC’s come to the courts in droves if they do not have their title deeds? I think the judgement in the Orams case more than anything said give the title deeds back to the TC’s. That is what I think the apprehension might be with more cases in the South being brought like the Apostilides case. The number of TC’s that could go into the courts would increase by a factor of probably 300 to 500. For every 1 TC that has their title deeds for property in the South today there are probably several hundred that do not.
I could see this problem coming about 15 years ago when to my question about where their title deeds were for their property in the South my TC friends said the government took them. So they cannot claim property back if they wanted to. As citizens in the South can challenge through the courts with their title deeds, for citizens in the North it is hard to impossible.
However, I would like to hear the thoughts from members on this board–both GC, TC, and the English–as to how to treat some TC’s. I think the responses to a single situation might be enlightening to the whole process.
My TC friends lived in Nicosia and Paphos before the divide. The wife in Nicosia and husband in Paphos. They had property in both place. Paphos clearly on the South and Nicosia property was on both the north and south and in Nicosia downtown near the green line in present day GC. I have seen the property as it is in a fairly nice area. And based on the Orams judgement of 500 pounds per month I would say this has to be worth multiple times that for years. And the Paphos property is on the fringe of a nice hotel today. At the time of the problems in the 60′s it was not safe and so they went to England where they worked hard and did well. They both received British Citizenship. (I think more than half of the TC’s are living outside of the North right now, which reminds of Israel Palestine and the right to return). Any way, in the late 70′s they came back and with points–both from the husband and wife–they redeemed property which they live in to today. I think the points they used were some that belonged to the Paphos property. However, they have only redeemed a faction of their points to date. Their house they are living in is GC. If the GC would want his property back, like in the Orams’ case, what should happen? And how can they do anything with the TRNC holding their title deeds? They would certainly have standing in the EU as British Citizens I would think for their property in the South. But I am not sure about that. Any thought?
And should the TRNC give the title deeds back to the TC’s who they belonged to? I can tell you what their thinking is but I would rather hear the thoughts on this board.
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Reidi wrote:
“Besides it has been proved that a garden hose is all the protection anyone needs against you guys.”
The same garden hoses that killed 5000 plus G/Cs in 1974 !
Did you know the number of losses of the Turkish army ?
I will tell you , you senile old codger , 3000 Turkish troops lost their lives in the war of 1974 , what do you make of that Plonker !
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Yiannis,
If a typing error is worth a dig, I better get out my spade
and go through your posts!!
Whether we believe each other is irrelevent as we will never
meet.
This does not apply to you Yiannis, because for whatever reason
I dont think you are like this.
Most GCs having sold their land, their dowry land and just about
spent all the money,. it has suddenly occurred to them perhaps
we should get some money from elsewhere – theres land up
North for the taking, lets go for it.
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Yiannis
I am impressed – you didnt insult even though I was being deliberately provocative.
There is some truth in the fact that an awful lot of land has
been sold in the South to developers, does that bother you. I am
not talking about TC owned land.
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Why not GC and TC must not demand compensation for loss of use of their properties and restitution? I say all must claim their rights. Republic of Cyprus must and will comply with whatever court decisions just like it did with no exceptions in the past. The question mark is on the TC regime’s side that up until today haven’t comply to any UN or court decision what so ever..
GC must not worry for this kind of Backlash since the power of the law is on our side for many reasons.
The TC legal owners of the land that was used for Infrastructure must and will take compensations for the use of their land but not for the 35year LOSS since the Turkish army and their side are responsible for that. They are the ones who forced the TCs sign illegal papers that said they decline the ownership of their properties on the south in order to take new properties in the North.
So compensation for the expropriation of their land, YES.
Compensation for the deprivation of their land. NO unless if they sue TURKEY.
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η πόρνες της Μεσογείου = prostitutes of Mediterranean.
Nice one Troodo, the Greeks have wisdom, but they have become Οι επαίτες της Μεσογείου.
So they may need a few tax paying prostitutes to help them out.
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TROODO AND THUNDERBOX
I dont understand – its all Greek to me.
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The beggars in the Mediterranean – Thunderbox, even Greeks have their limits, they wouldn’t touch a GC with a ten foot pole.
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Kyriacos, thank you for your response and I wish others would weigh in.
Two quick questions in reflection of your post:
1. So if I read your post correctly, the Apostilides case was wrong to find judgment against the Orams for 500 pounds a month. I believe that is how you view it. Just this aspect singularly irrespective of the merits of the other issues in the case. Correct me if I am wrong.
2. Your post is interesting too as you find TC’s were victims also of Turkey in a broad sense. However, from the beginning of your post–GC and TC alike must not take compensation–to the end where TC must not take compensation because the “Turkish Army and their side” were responsible are you maintaining your initial point? Who is the their side of which you speak? Does this TC I mention above bear the burden of the Turkish Army invading the island?
Point of question, if the TRNC is an illegal regime, should the ROC restore the title deeds to these TC’s at once?
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Listen Thomas if you ask me, yes of-course Cyprus must at once restore the title deeds to all TC with no conditions whatsoever. I believe asking for your human rights to be restored first in order to restore the human rights of others later-on is pure hypocrisy. You must respect human rights first in order to claim yours. But i don’t think to the bottom this is a fair question.
Republic of Cyprus still considers TC as the legal owners and at least there are some procedures for them to claim their properties back and live to the south. Some did; So ROC to a point made the first step and respects the human rights of TC to a degree.
But at the same time Turkey did not gave anything in return back. And that is a fact we just cannot ignore. For the last 35 years. 200.000 GC are still refugees living in difficult circumstances and at the same time an entire city, Famagusta that could have made their life a lot easier is just kept closed and deserted waiting for Turkish settlers from anatolia to claim it. Only recently on 2004 Turkey allowed the GC to just visit some parts of North cyprus for a few days. So i believe the argument that Turkey must do the next step sounds at least logical to my ears.
As for the ORAMs case i don’t know..
it is an ethical thing i guess.. I do feel sorry for orams.. i really do. But
was it ethical for Mr A to loose his property without any sort of Compensation what so ever?
I don’t think this is ethical either so.. i guess depending on your side you choose where you stand on this. The sure thing is that legally MrA was vindicated. Now if legal-justice is a fare thing afterall this is another huge philosophical question that i am afraid i am just not qualified enough to answer.
Maybe if Orams did not stated with such rude to his face ”this is our land now” when he crossed the borders to visit his family home but instead showed a little compassion or at least pretend they didn’t know anything offering him a coffee with a logical compensation for both sides .. .. then.. Maybe MrA wouldn’t be so pissed. Or if Turkey tried first to expropriate the land of MRa and then sell it to innocent foreigners..
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but I can ensure you that we touch your women with much smaller poles than that.- You can say that again.
Cyprus has been attacked and occupied by every single player in history but nobody stayed, they all left.- Hardly surprising, who would want to live with GC’s.
The term “Turk” acquired the a meaning similar to “barbarian” or “heathen” — And these are the people who actually bothered to wash themselves and who were far in advance of the West in many sciences, including medicine. I will not go into the atrocities committed in the name of the Christian Church, it might burst your bubble and cause you damage.
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Kyriacos, You are a fellow that I believe if in charge we would not be talking about this 35 years out.
But as you can see from other posters on here, the situation is continuing to fan larger flames, not smaller. What we have seen to date is much like this board; very few people willing to really engage. With you I agree on Famagusta, it is sad. And if Orams treated Mr. A as they did that is wrong too. I personally have seen GC that come across and are invited in and have tea with the TC. And I also came across a situation near Karmi–out riding my bike–where the police had to be called in. I am also extremely critical of the North in a lack of taking care of the land. I ride my bike in the mountains and I see more and more trash just thrown around. As I have reflected on this it is indicative of a people that don’t really feel that the land truly belongs to them.
The situation we have gotten to is the result of a war. What people are trying to do is reclaim legal rights after a war. And that is hard. Wars occur because two side cannot talk through their problems. And the reality is that things do not get put back the way they were. My family lost a plantation in a war that divided the US. Nobody is looking or seeking compensate for the loss of our property of which some of the Atlanta airport sits on today. Nobody took Abraham Lincoln to court for the invasion. I guess we were lucky to get out alive as hundreds of thousands did not. I tell you one thing, history is taught differently in the South than in the North of the US today. Much the same as in Cyprus with one difference, nothing has been settled in the mind of either side.
If you start from the basis of a war and work to the present then there might be some ability to put back together and move on. But if both sides can not come to a conclusion on the basis of the war, how can they come to a conclusion on much simpler things? One thing that I can pretty much tell you for sure is that if there is not someone that comes to the table with a game changer–something different than the same old same old–then the situation will be exactly the same 35 years from now. And that might be hopeful as there is a real possibility of another war. I talked with English folks that watched the war in 74 out their front window in Karmi; jets flying below their elevation strafing. Had they thought there was going to be a war they would not have even been there. It crept up on them. I myself even have a hard time believing this sometimes too but the reality sinks in as in my case one morning I am riding my mountain bike at sunrise and I have to stop as tanks are crossing in front of me. Folks there are a lot of arms in Cyprus in a very small space and that is usually a recipe for problems.
I am just telling you from the standpoint of how I see it. It is not how I would like to see it, but the reality of the situation.
I/we can talk about the merits of 500 pounds a month compensation for this and rights for that, but in the face of another conflict what does that all mean? There are real security issues on both sides that have never been settled. And it is not being addressed yet. Just look at the hate spewed on this board. We are worried about working on the patient’s broken foot and doing nothing for the gunshot wound to the stomach.
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Reading Thomas’s last post is a sobering experience. Nothing and I mean nothing is worth killing for. Long after we are all gone
the land will still be here, we’ll just be manure, part of the food
chain. How insignificant we really are and yet we cannot co- exist. How arrogant we are thinking our rights and needs are
greater than anyone elses.
Reading and agreeing with Thomas’s take on things is so depressing
and no, I do not know the answer either.
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.. The garbage thing is common for both sides i believe, is not just the north part, even though i have not visited North to compare. Even in Britain you see garbage all over the place nowadays, people are just like that.. arrogant pricks who exploit anything they have access to.
I am not that pessimistic over the future though i don’t believe in war neither. I believe when Turkey joins the EU approximately 20 years from now everything will be solved. One way or another. I believe justice will finally prevail for both Sides.
Both Turkey and the GC side as Eu members will then have to respect the Eu court resolutions.
Whatever that may been.
So yes one way or another the problem will be solved, people may come and go but Cyprus as an island will always be there..
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Kiriacos
The litter problem here is 20 fold that of the South and even
the U.K. It is disgusting and this I do believe to be the
fault of the Turkish immigrants – definitely not the military
as whenever you drive near a camp it is spotless. It seems to be
their culture to drop anything anywhere, and I do mean anything;
from a sweet wrapper, to a fridge to a soiled nappie to a settee.
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Third world people are not that fussy where their garbage is thrown , part of their culture I’m afraid , same culture that defines the honour of a family as resting in between a females legs .Fact !
Here in the UK ITS EVIDENT IN THE STREETS OF LONDON.
Spitting and discharging their noses on to the pavement is again a part of this third world culture .
Dont anyone dare call me a racist !!!
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Yiannis
You paint an ugly – but true picture.
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Kiri.
You really are a hypocrite. But keep it up, the more who read your posts the more will realise your one-sided vitriol.
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i hear talk of WHEN Turkey joins the EU,i’m quite sure the french will veto this, with an estimated 6 million muslims already in the country, they don’t want anymore coming in. And talking of rubbish visit crete or rhodes or even zante and the layby’s are awash with rubbish, at least where i live in “guds landet”, (gods country) our layby’s are free from trash
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Kyri you keep making love what on earth are you on !!!!
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Kiri. Truth seems to be beyond your perception, which keeps us all amused. You GC sympathisers utter hatred for Turks, or anything Turkish, make you appear ridicules. To try and debate with such closed minds is pointless, but goading you into making a fools of yourselves certainly has its value – so I am content.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Troodo , where did you learn your English ?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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My friend Kyriacos,
If Turkey were to get into the EU, as you suggest, that might be a route to resolution. However, I do not believe that Turkey will get into the EU, and not only that, I also believe that they will withdraw from the process in the next 3 to 4 years. They will withdraw, in my opinion, for three reason outside of the fact that many/most of their people do not want it. What is ironic is that it is the Islamist Government that is pushing for the EU membership, not the secularist.
1. The EU application, no matter how it started out, today is more a question of balance of power between the military and the current government (Islamist). In the most simple terms, under guise of reform to get into the EU they are destroying the military power in internal government and arresting military officers. And as that happens and has happened their need/desire to join the EU diminishes.
2. If you look at the more recent (last several years) economic reports/numbers in Turkey much trade has turned from the West to the Middle East, Russia and Asia. Looking at the hard numbers you see that trade has leaped with this area and steadily and in some cases (economic sectors) dramatically fallen with the West. Turkey is getting their economic house in order outside of the EU. In this context there is far less desire to align with the EU as in the past. This week Turkey is issuing a 10 year bond, something unheard of in the past but a sign of the economic reform.
3. And this is the most ironic, but Greece might be the unwinding of the EU. Greek problems economically could very well break the EU as we know it. The desire by Turkey to join the EU took a dramatic fall this week.
Therefore, in my opinion mind you, basing the resolution in Cyprus on the Turkish EU application is a goal that is now in the rear view mirror and fading fast. That is why I talk about the need for a game changer in looking at a resolution.
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If the islamists in Turkey are driving the country west and the army is trying to pull the country east, this gives you an idea what is brewing under the cover in Turkey,
I think Ertogan will fight this to the end. If he was to give up on trying to bring the country out of the grip of the establishment he would have shown signs by now.
I would not be surpised to see something dramatic happen over the next 1-2 years ( assasination and/or coup ).
see what they did to this guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turgut_%C3%96zal
The sick man of Europe is as sick as ever…
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Yiannis
It is sad when someone gets stuck in the past.
Do you remember flower power – make love not war
the overuse of whacky backy. I think that answers
your question in post 4339
Troodo
Your English is very good and I do not write Greek or Turkish
but have a small understanding of both. Dont be petty Yiannis
you are better than that.
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Kiri you say – The point is that while you accuse me of utter hatred for Turks, I believe that I am just stating facts. Show me I am wrong and I might start wondering if you are right.
Not a lot of point really, done that, been there, not had one GC addmit they are wrong on anything. Still, try this one.
The technique of inoculation was not invented by Jenner and Pasteur but was devised in the Muslim world and brought to Europe from Turkey by the wife of the English ambassador to Istanbul in 1724. Children in Turkey were vaccinated with cowpox to fight the deadly smallpox at least 50 years before the West discovered it.
I am sure you will make a fool of yourself again – feel free.
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Trood , you are talking crap again .
Inoculation was discovered Edward Jenner 1749-1823 didn’t you learn that at school.
Turkey being so ..good in medicine and yet this third world nation has a life expectancy 8 years less than that of Cyprus .On the UN list of life expectancy of nations Cyprus is at number 30 and Turkey at number 98 !!!
Plonker who is the fool you nincompooooooo !!!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Polly , do you have a sense of humour , well you should after all you purchased in the pseudo state !!!
May I also add that your sense of Humour surpasses my expectations more so with this bit :
“Troodo
Your English is very good ”
His English might be good , according to you , but his knowledge on who discovered Injections is somewhat clouded by his commitment to the “trnc”
So that you also know some facts Polly, the T/Cs as well as the G/Cs are so far advanced that the Anatolian Turks have an average life span some 8 years shorter than that of the Cypriots. Generally speaking the more advanced a nation is the longer the life span tends to be .We have absolutely nothing to learn from Turkey , their culture , their civil structures and the country’s overall infrastructure is still very much that of a third world country.
Neither do we have much to learn from the mainland Greeks .
As Cypriots we have progressed steadily since independence becoming one of Europe’s most affluent nations. Our Senior Citizens receive on average some 30% more in benefits than the UK senior citizens. A couple in Cyprus receive 1300 Euros monthly !!
Do we like Turkey ? Well the majority of T/Cs don’t like Turkey and visa versa why should we !!
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The following article from the T/C Newspaper ” Afrika” could be educational to some plonkers here.
http://www.afrikagazetesi.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1297
Quote:
Title Deeds for Turkish Property in the South
The Greek Cypriot administration will also give title deeds to refugees from the north who are living in Turkish property in the south. But these title deeds will not be fraudulent, like those given to refugees from the south in the north. In the south, the exact opposite of the practice in the north is being implemented. In the north, those to whom Greek Cypriot property was distributed were given fraudulent title deeds and now the Immovable Property Commission is paying compensation to the Greek Cypriots who are the real owners of this property. In the south, on the other hand, before title deeds are issued to Greek Cypriots living in Turkish property, the property is being purchased from Turkish Cypriots. The Greek Cypriot Interior Minister Silikiotis has confirmed that they are attempting to purchase Turkish Cypriot property so that refugees may be given title deeds. Silikiotis, saying that efforts were being made to give title deeds to all refugees, pointed out that it was legal for them to purchase Turkish property and noted that this property was not being bought at a high price. Purchases for the most part consist of Turkish land on which refugee housing has been built.
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I knew I was wasting my time – scattering seeds on barren ground comes to mind.
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I think this answers the question as to what kind of people Turks are. 3rd world indeed!
stelios ioannou. That would be your interpretation of course.
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No no no Yiannis
You have tried to cloud the issue, I was pointing out that
Troodo has a good command of written English, which he does,
maybe not as good as yours but I suspect he did not have the
advantage of living in the U.K. or having an English wife.
You know nothing about him, he may have command of other
languages as well as his mother tongue, please dont descend to the
level of other posters by attacking the use of a language on
the board especially as I know you understand everything he writes.
You naughty boy, I expect better from you.
As an aside, in the U.K. women outlive men on average by 4 years
according to Life Insurance Actuaries.
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Yiannis
Please google the name Benjamin Jesty
Trood
I totally believe you regarding inoculation against cowpox.
It is often the person who brings something to the attention
of the masses who gets to recognition and it really doesnt matter
as long as it benefits mankind.
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Edward Jenner was an English physician who is credited with successfully introducing the practice of vaccinating against smallpox. Jenner, apprenticed to a surgeon as a boy, studied medicine briefly in London before returning to his rural hometown to open his own medical practice (1792). Following up on local lore that said dairymaids who had contracted cowpox were immune to smallpox, Jenner decided to see if he could adapt the Turkish practice of inoculation to prevent the spread and devastation of smallpox
In 1721 Lady Mary Wortley Montague, the wife of the English ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, was in Constantinople and there she saw the Turks inoculating each other.
Again the idea behind this was that if you get the disease in a mild, less debilitating form, you would not get it again.
Digest and learn, if that is possible.
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An ancestor of mine, in 1760, was inoculated for smallpox.
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Where was that Malcolm, Turkey?
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All quiet on the Western front?
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Taunton in Somerset. Inoculation dates back to 1000BC, vaccination to 1796. My Anatolian ancestors stretch a lot further back than 1760 according to a genealogical DNA test I took.
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Malcolm
You sure you didnt wander into the wrong dept at the hospital
and had gynaecological DNA test instead. I know your hormones
were all over the place. Know the feeling!!!
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The sample was taken from an orifice, yes.
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Ouch painful……………………..
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my mouth!
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Like I said, painful for the nurse!!
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It surprises me that all you cheapskates are more proud of Turkey than the T/Cs !!
A nation that deliberated for three months , at the highest level at that , whether its women folk should wear on not a head scarf !!!
A nation that tolerates the barbaric practice of honour murders !!
A nation that denies its dark past , the Armenian genocide comes to mind .
A nation whose citizens seek refuge in the West hidden in lorries crossing over into Europe !
A nation that teaches its students that one Turk equals 1000 non Turks !!
Are you for real you lot , it seems to me you have all lost your marbles and reverted to your embryonic stage !!
Let us hail Turkey for all the great achievements that the Western world benefited by!!
I wonder if the Hippocratic oath is taken in Turkey !!!
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@Thomas
Sorry for the delay man, professional obligations..
..so.. I believe that Erdogan just like any other politician is drawn by his economic interests or those of his patrons. Europe as Greece has proven to us is a confectionery for corrupted politicians to exploit. So as long as Turkey is a Democratic country someone will wonna put his finger to the honey-jar.
Now about the Greek phenomenon.
The real question i believe is not whether Greece fits or not to the EU standards. I believe It is whether EU laws and institutions are to be trusted my friend. First of all those are the laws and institutions that accepted Greece to EURO in the first place and furthermore I mean think about it. If a Tiny country like Greece With the corrupted past of a granny-prostitute manages to ”fool” Eurostat with false data, Who can say with certainty that other Countries way more powerful than Greece, Countries like German or Britain are not bullshitting us also? Who is to be trusted any more? Clearly Eurostat and precautionary measures are not enough. The way i see it, There is a Huge EU problem here. Its not just the ”Greek problem”. Today is Greece, tomorrow?
One might say the way Europe works allowed Greek politicians to borrow all that money in the name of Greek youth. And where all that money went anyways? I ve been to Greece i saw nothing worth 495billions. Maybe we must start checking bank accounts in Switzerland? I don’t know.. The sure thing is local politicians-business men are able to easily steal Euros and get away with it. The current system just not Works. Its just to socialized.
I believe Countries that are part of EURO must find a different way to coordinate. Maybe all public infrastructure and military programs of that Countries must be formed by a central government of some sort. Since we share the same currency then we are practically part of the same country so someone must have a final say to the spending of local governments. We cannot just allow to a local corrupted politician like Karamanlis to jeopardize the future of our currency.
->In America The local-State authorities cannot just borrow money for whatever reason. All public spending decisions especially for infrastructures are taken by the feds.
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If a Turkish Cypriot applies for return of land in the South
cannot produce title deeds, what checks will the ROC make to
ascertain for instance whether the applicant has received
GC land in the North under the points system, sold that land
and is looking for another payout? There is a 99% chance
that the land in the north would have been sold illegally
(allegedly) to an ex pat.
I ask because rumours are rife that this is happening.
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Kyriacos my friend,
I agree with everything you said. My difficulty is that it is a goal more then reality. My attempt was not to be critical of Greece in and of itself. Rather, to take the information at hand using it to reflect upon the Cyprus Solution and Turkey’s involvement.
The direction by the EU and ROC has been that Turkey wants to join the EU and in this there is leverage over Turkey to come to a solution with Cyprus, and then through the EU a legal framework and course of action. As I said in the last post, I think that leverage is fading with Turkey’s EU situation. In addition, I do not see the Turkish side looking for resolution. As a matter of fact with the exception of being isolated economically, in all other things they would rather not come back together. The ROC would like to come back together but on terms that the North has not yet agreed to. The great hope has been the EU, but in my opinion a false hope. Without that formula a new paradigm will need to come forth.
In all of this talk of resolution, there is little that addresses security. The TC I know are truly afraid of being mixed back together. And I would imagine maybe the GC are too. Maybe when a generation passes, with that will pass some of the fear. The problem though is the younger folks do not know the other side and all both sides have been taught is hate. Whereas the older TC can speak Greek the younger ones cannot. As a new generation comes to power in the North, what is the impetus to go to resolution?
I ask rhetorically, how has this been a basis for a road to resolution? As I said before, though there is not active fighting, the war never finished.
In my opinion, going forward, if the onus is put upon Turkey nothing is going to happen. When they took the island and then backed off to the current line they meant something, unless their generals were extremely inept and in this respect I would not underestimate them. I do not think the legal framework through the EU is going to mean much. That is why the ROC needs what I call a “game changer” if they want the process to go forward.
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”The TC I know are truly afraid of being mixed back together. And I would imagine maybe the GC are too”
As long as propaganda that focuses on the crimes of ”the others” and not ours exist. Then Fear will be a part of cyprus problem indefinitely..
Now, on the other things you say i agree 100% on everything with you mate, except from one Part.
Yes Turkey might be just fine with the current situation and for sure can live without europe, but i believe TC really stand on the other side and want to join us in the EU no matter what. Its either with us and the EU or they know that 10-20 years from now they will end up just a decadent Turkey shire with more Kurds than actual TC, a minority once again in there own land. Its not just about the legal problems of Trnc there also some practical limitations here There are just to few of them to be trully independent. So i believe there is hope. I do not believe that the average TC has a problem on giving the land that he does not legally owns to his former owner in exchange for his old land in the south that probably now worths twice as much, Just imaging that nearly all of LArnacas coast line belongs to TC. We talk about 100 of millions here. Why wouldn’t they wonna trade?
Maybe i am a little bit overoptimistic here.. but it is what it is..
I truly believe that if Talat pisses on his motherland the way Christofias and many GC do, a solution with a prosperous future is surely ahead of us. Up to 10 billion left the Greek banks, went to Switzerland and Cyprus, from November 2009 to date
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.enet.gr%2F%3Fi%3Dnews.el.ellada%26id%3D130271&sl=el&tl=en
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Almost all of this article is plagiarized from the Cyprus Mail, not “by” Daniel Freeman at all. (See http://www.news.cyprus-property-buyers.com/2010/02/14/orams-decision-could-open-pandoras-box/id=003919)
The section from “After 1974″ up until “part of the new one” is almost exactly word-for-word lifted from the Cyprus Mail. Although it gives credit to the Cyprus Mail, the citing and crediting is awful. Admittedly, it includes a belated “According to the Cyprus Mail”, but almost all of the ensuing sentences are unquoted and barely changed from the original, breaking any high school-level plagiarism standard.
It seems only the first paragraph is really the author’s own writing.
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Kyriacos
I would imagine you are absolutely right that TCs would be more
than happy to give back the land belonging to the GCs in the north
in return for their land in the south back. Why wouldnt they
since they have already profited by selling it illegally to the
ex patsy’s and you are offering them the opportunity to have
their cake and eat it. How do you think the Orams got into
the situation they did – you think they forced the TC to sell
the land to them?? The YOU I use is like the royal WE and not
personal to you. There has to some way to stop this happening.
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Stephen, brilliant! A free newspaper without advertising, unpaid writers, what do you expect? I’m amazed that you would expect any different except as you say it’s “almost word-for-word.” And your point is? Perhaps you would like to write a well researched, original article for us for free? No? Perhaps that answers your criticism.
BTW, your link doesn’t work and his name is Dominic.
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Polly i believe here are where things get really complicate, its either EUrope will have to step in and provide a solution to the injustice by giving money to either one of the two sides (ex-patsy’s or GC) Or Turkey will have to be forced to interpretive, comply and respect the international law the way all other countries understand it and either give money to fix the injustice or Put those TC in Jail. (legally even Britain can put those TC in jail) (..sue the bastards for selling you illegal title deeds). But again.. its not that simple… The same with MRa’s case.. if their british court decision cannot be applied in the trnc that might complicate even further the cyprus problem.
Another solution is i guess to give to the refugees that lost their land this way TC land?
But wouldn’t be this ”amnesty” encouraging more crimes like this?
If as we talk TC are still trying to sell GC properties to ex patsy’s because they know that a political solution will legalize their crimes then
all these conversations, the dreams that we do, are just a big illusion festival..
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Thanks for your reply Kyriacos. Aint life complicated?
Take people out of the equation and it would be perfect.
Stephen – I think we all worked that out, no one claimed it as their own – saves us a couple of quid on buying the Cyprus Mail,
I’m all for it. Carry on the good work Malcolm
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Need an abuse top up so a small light hearted quiz to liven the debate, please feel free to add your own:
Has Mr Apostolides:
A.Indicated when he may take up residence yet? Y/N
B.Opened an account for the Orams pensions to be paid into? Y/N
C.Drawn up his own plans for a new house on the site? Y/N
D.Taken advice from Debt Collection agencies? Y/N
E.Applied for PTP in the TRNC? Y/N
F.Ordered some replacement Olive trees? Y/N
G.Opened a lira account in Girne? Y/N
H.Checked out the import tax payable on his car in the TRNC? Y/N
I.Checked if his RoC house is on TC land? Y/N
J.Given up hope of ever recieving a penny? Y/N
J.None of the above? Y/N
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Hey all, especially my friends Yiannis, Get Real and Stelios…
Sorry I’ve been out of touch for a while – been enjoying the beauty of the view of the Med from my patio in my villa in my village of Esentepe. Couldn’t be bothered with the internet…
But back to work now. With regard to this thread and the Orams’ situation, although most of it’s been done to death by now, there is one question I’ve put before that none of these extremist GCs have been game to tackle.
The best information I’ve been able to glean about the Orams’ villa is that it is situated on approximately 10% of Mr Apostolides’ land, and 7 Turkish Cypriots have built houses on the other 90%. If any of this is incorrect, I’d be happy to be given the references to demonstrate the accurate figures.
Given that Mr Apostolides has been quoted a number of times as saying that all the poor fellow wanted was to get his land back, my question is why did he only sue for 10% of it?
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Kyriacos, Someday I hope that maybe we can sit and have dinner and discuss in a proper way. I would like that.
You are more optimistic than I. And that is a good thing. I do not think Turkey is as enlightened as you believe. And also, I do not see the desire to get into the EU by TC as broadly as you do. The ones I associate with do not want it at any cost and that threshold is fairly low. That is why I appreciate others opinions as you may have a closer track to true opinion of TC’s than I.
When I open NCFP today and read the current articles on GC getting “Certificates of Ownership” that is not the Game-Changer I was thinking about. I know that maybe it is not as simple as the article suggests, but it does represent an ideology that in my opinion does not bring the sides closer. And I do not think it fits in with your overall philosophy either when earlier you said, “Listen Thomas if you ask me, yes of-course Cyprus must at once restore the title deeds to all TC with no conditions whatsoever…..”
Can we compare the actions of an legal government–the ROC–with that of an unrecognized one? The EU will need to be able to this or lose all credibility.
And on a broader question. Is a person always a TC or a GC even if they have lived off the island for years? Why do I ask this question? What about the hundreds of thousands that live off the island. We assume the TC or GC population is that of 35 years ago. What would you estimate the population of TC that are already EU citizens?
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