There are several lawyers that would take this …
Comment posted Tit for tat, how to use “exchange” land to your advantage by mastakounas evaggelos.
there are several lawyers that would take this up, it would probably wise to have a chat with a lawyer (even a tc one) and ask their opinion whether what they are looking to do will be effective…
Im a bit lost on how they will get the RoC to recognise the purchase of this “exchanged land”. The RoC will ( in my view) be unable to accept and kind of legal document (deed or contractual agreement) if the juristiction is the “trnc” (a non-entity). Perhaps if the “sale” agreement is under English law…even turkish law…
In all likelyhood the court will refuse to deal with this and send the case to some government body where it will place some form of “informal” injusction. Ofcourse if the TC coutersues he/she will probably win the case..
it’s all very complicated…
mastakounas evaggelos also commented
- to be clear:
legally speaking, the ex-pat issue has nothing to do with the tc ownership in the south.
The fact that you seek to receive compensation for you costs relating to fallout of the orams case relates to the above issue only to the extend that the TC has owneship somewhere in the EU ( that is if you bring a case against the TC)
The rational that you can get the TC land in the south(via relinguishing the land in the north) as compensation is rubbish .
You might,however, get your money back if (via court order) the any EU territory TCs property is sold (in auction for example) and you receive money as result of that sale. For argument sake, the same TC may turn around and pay your costs in cash. THIS NEEDS TO BE CLEAR so as we do not have a kindergarden conversation.
You do not, in any way shape or form, have rights over the TC land in the south (or anywhere in the north even under “trnc” laws).
You are entititled to monetary compensation because you were defrauded by either a TC (RoC citizen) or Turkey.We can talk about moral justice until the cows come home (its been 35 years for some).
VH, I forsee, over the next 1-2 years the “borders” closing because of this TC land in the south issue. The GC will be unable to stop the TC from claiming land in the south so they need to make a political move to stop this from happening. The TC land is monetarily insignificant to the RoC but politically, the goverment that allows this to happen will suffer a political blow.
BTW I still think you are way off regarding moral justice, you are ignoring the fact that the GC do not have the choice to claim and use their land in the north (how can you have missed that?!). And that, clearly, Turkey feels that the land in the north does not belong to the GC anymore (contrary to the position of the RoC regarding TC land in the south).
You will not earn my respect (if you care) unless we can have an HONEST conversation about things. Otherwise this would be a waste of time and lots and lots of wishful thinking…
- so there are 6 options on the table (and some combinations) of:
a. action against the RoC in an RoC court – no case/no chance
b. Action VS TC in RoC – for fraud in receiving moneys for land that was not his/hers
c. Action vs Turkey in RoC – no juristiction
d. action against the RoC in Eu Court – No case
e. Action VS TC in EU – no case/no HR violation
f. Action vs Turkey in EU – based on A VS O, fraud/misrepresentation – your best chanceYou could ofcourse go to a “trnc” court but it would not solve the problem of double selling, and at the end of the day why do you care ? If you are already residing on “stolen” property what is the difference who originally owns it? The issue here is to resolve the O VS A, irrespective of the original owner.
VH, if you feel the 6 month rule is unreasonable(unfair) protection for the RoC to take then you are truly deluded regarding the Cyprus issue as a whole. Ofcourse, like you said the 6 month rule cannot stand in an RoC court. There can be no derogaation to the HR of ownership. The RoC gov. will try to place all sorts of obstacles for the implementation of this, and in my view, rightly so. The TC will remain the owners of the land but will be denied usage one way or another.
I cannot take you seriously if you are of the opinion that the TC should have their own land in the south and the GC land in the north. it makes no sense.
I will say this again for the ex-pats here, your only real chance of doing something about your case, once action has been brough against you in the RoC (and you are forced to vacate), is to piggy-back on the O vs A case and sue Turkey in an EU court for fraudulant sale of property. This, in order to recover losses.
- dear all,
my view is that the only chance you have in recovering any costs/losses is to sue Turkey for it.
This follows along the lines of the A vs O case and interestingly enough. I think you might have a case against turkey for misrepresentation, if you can prove you were deceived (can you?)!
ofcourse this means that you will be persona non-grada on both sides of the “border”. and that, in all likelyhood, you will be deported by the wonderful “TRNC” ( oh, yes they will).
The RoC places reasonable barriers for any TC to claim their land back (I think 6 months of residency is in fact VERY soft). it prevents clowns from trying to take advantage and make a quick return. Ofcourse any TC that dares to sue the RoC will crash the 6 months rule.
sorry to tell you. you are screeeeeewd . enjoy it while you can
Recent comments by mastakounas evaggelos
- Turkish and Greek Cypriots stand against a common enemy
winding down is one thing, giving them up is another.there’s (yet another) law suit pending against the UK government by a (GC) third party group for non-payment of the fees owed to the RoC.
The RoC has not dared to ask for the moneys owed (god help should we upset the brits). The politicians seem to agree there is “no need” for this now. They are still hoping for UK support in the cyprus issue (if anyone can believe this will ever happen). I just think they are worried for the UK biz in the RoC being damaged.
In any case, this third party is getting ready to submit this suit again her majestys’ gov and the main argument is that they are RoC tax payers who have been wronged under the (monkey) constitution of 1960. The Brits stopped paying in 1963 saying that the moneys needs to be divided between tc &gc. Talk about the UK being guarantor of the RoC!
The RoC and the brit gov are both being sued for this, the amount is unknown. Some estimate between few hunder thou others up 1 Billion.
The political point here is to show the UKs role in the divisision status of the island. And of course ANYTHING to get up to a brit nostrol cant be bad….
- Property – a problem shared is a problem quadrupuled
VW said:“ME, do you not feel sad that GC refugees who have made their homes on TC property are now legally classed as trespassers and are now in the same situation as the TC you mentioned in your comment? It must be gut wrenching for them, as Pauline pointed out in her article.
”well I certainly dont know how they feel about this but GENERALLY speaking the properties that GC got were not exactly ideal.
Generally, TCs were on the poor side of life. Most of the people who got were would rather be placed in refugee type homes rather than these. This gives you a pretty good idea.
There are in fact only a few hundred GC who were given these. I would imagine the only ppl who would like to keep the properties (not the buildings) are the ppl in mesa yitonia in limassol. These now should have a high value. Everyone else would be happy to get an RoC piece of land with similar value somewhere else.
In any case the RoC will compensate these “double” refugees enough to keep them quiet (here I go paying for other people once again)
As far as the TCs are concerned I doubt they will be moving anywhere anytime soon. It may mean they are unable to come to the RoC, something that would not make the RoC government happy. The RoC was and still is promoting communal intergration (especially AKEL).
- Come to north Cyprus via Larnaca or Ercan?
RG,you have the feeling that the RoC is unfair ? The RoC has already stated they are returning the TC properties (and it’s not like they ever took them). Whats so unfair about that ? in any case it seems the RoC has no choice BUT to vacate these properties to their original owners. What larnaca airport? wtf are you talking about? There was more GC land apropriated than tc land to build it. and in any case they paid the tc off.
Your argument is as empty as your morals
let me repeat my previous post for all those of you who clicked on dislike. Pls feel free to do so again:
Regarding orams/writs/arrest warrants, RoC police has no choice other than to enforce court orders.
If a court judment has been made against anyone (orams or not orams related), the police executes writs/warrants on entry (or exit) at the airport.
It is NOT in the discression of the of the RoC DEA to execute these. The RoC goverment does not have juristiction over the execution of these. Our legal system works
So let there be no doubt, if you use RoC entry points, the law will be enforced.
So please, save the convesation comparing cypriot “airports” (ercan is illegal) and start thinking what moving company you are going to be using.
I think the way they deliver writs now is inside your passport, when it is returned back from the immigration officer
Ofcourse, better to get a writ than a court judgement delivery.
Enjoy your trip and safe travels.
- Come to north Cyprus via Larnaca or Ercan?
vw said :You talk the talk, but you don’t walk the walk.”regarding orams/writs/arrest warrants, RoC police has no choice other than to enforce court orders.
If a court judment has been made against anyone (orams or not orams related), the police executes writs/warrants on entry (or exit) at the airport.
It is NOT in the discression of the of the RoC DEA to execute these. The RoC goverment does not have juristiction over the execution of these. Our legal system works
So let there be no doubt, if you use RoC entry points, the law will be enforced.
- PGA and Sky TV implicated in Cyprus Golf Scandal
“This was clearly racial and religious discrimination on the part of Matchroom and the PGA ”Pfff what a clown! Cheap shots even for a golfer.
Sure the PGA is up there with the KKK and white power movement…nice argument.
Another TC nut who cannot comprehent the fact that he will be treaded as rubish until he gives up what he stole.
Read my lips as soon as this clown negotiations are over, WE WILL SHUT YOU DOWN.
Give it up. The party is over.
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polly on 
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Ian Edwards on
The obvious first question has got to be – do any of our
G.C. posters know of a lawyer in the south who would take on
such a case – perhaps Mr. A’s lawyer? This is a very serious
question and when answering remember justice should be available
to everyone.
Pauline,
Understand the concept and it has it’s merits. The bit I am puzzled by is this. RoC law would presumably only accept that the land in the South was owned by the TC – any subsequent transactions in the TRNC would not be recognised. So surely the only person that can progress this claim is the TC who received “Exchange” land in the North. And if that TC has sold the land on then, as I understand it, he is prevented under TRNC law from making a claim for his/her original land (because as far as the TRNC Government is concerned they now hold the title for the land in the South pending a settlement).
there are several lawyers that would take this up, it would probably wise to have a chat with a lawyer (even a tc one) and ask their opinion whether what they are looking to do will be effective…
Im a bit lost on how they will get the RoC to recognise the purchase of this “exchanged land”. The RoC will ( in my view) be unable to accept and kind of legal document (deed or contractual agreement) if the juristiction is the “trnc” (a non-entity). Perhaps if the “sale” agreement is under English law…even turkish law…
In all likelyhood the court will refuse to deal with this and send the case to some government body where it will place some form of “informal” injusction. Ofcourse if the TC coutersues he/she will probably win the case..
it’s all very complicated…
I was thinking about Pauline’s idea and, as far as the RoC is concerned, nothing the TRNC does matters. However, the TRNC hold the title deeds, I assume, and the only way that Pauline’s idea would work would be with the co-operation of the TRNC to release the title deeds and for the TC to allow their property to be assigned to the ex-pat. Although, up to now, the RoC has controlled TC access to/disposal of their property the EU has made it clear that to do so is illegal.
Am I understanding correctly. Even though, the TC accepted
land belonging to a GC, then sold it, they could still be
legally entitled to claim the original land in the GC – how
unfair is that? I suppose it could be that he ex pat a EU citizen
having had their money taken fraudulently have had their
human rights violated, after all, they stand to loose their
home. I suppose if the TC countersues, at least the ex pat will
have irrefutable proof that the TC signed a fraudulent Contract
and took money for a property that did not belong to them.
Like you said Masta complicated.
VictorHugo
Having seen some of the scams taking place here, my fear
is that the less scrupulous TC having benefitted by taking the
ex pats money and in some cases going on to mortgage the land
again after the sale but before it could be registered
in the purchasers name, might just think a third bite of the cherry is in order and try to claim the land they left in the south
claiming to have lost the deeds which the TRNC gov. allegedly
hold.
Malcom,
In reality I suspect that the TRNC Government may not hold the actual deeds. But I’m assuming that the TRNC Relocation Board who administered the “points exchange” system do have a (TRNC) legal document signed by the TC foregoing rights to their property in the South in exchange for land in the North. (How well this process was scrutinised/audited is another matter altogether).
So pursuing their claim for land in the South would be illegal in the TRNC (they have signed away their rights) but legal in the RoC (as they do not recognise the TRNC or it’s laws. Curiously though the 6 month residency rule set up by the RoC has been defended as a means of ensuring there is no “double dipping” (selling exchange land in the North whilst seeking compensation for land in the South). This seems to be a tacit recognition by the RoC of the existence of the TRNC exchange system!
So the underlying challenge is the existence of two legal systems on the island – something which it seems Mr Apostolides hadn’t thought through when pursuing his case for return to his property in the North!
Pauline,
It’s certainly a possibility, although the RoC seem to believe that they can ensure that this doesn’t happen by carrying out the “necessary checks”.
As Masta said – it’s all very complicated!
dear all,
my view is that the only chance you have in recovering any costs/losses is to sue Turkey for it.
This follows along the lines of the A vs O case and interestingly enough. I think you might have a case against turkey for misrepresentation, if you can prove you were deceived (can you?)!
ofcourse this means that you will be persona non-grada on both sides of the “border”. and that, in all likelyhood, you will be deported by the wonderful “TRNC” ( oh, yes they will).
The RoC places reasonable barriers for any TC to claim their land back (I think 6 months of residency is in fact VERY soft). it prevents clowns from trying to take advantage and make a quick return. Ofcourse any TC that dares to sue the RoC will crash the 6 months rule.
sorry to tell you. you are screeeeeewd . enjoy it while you can
A thought, the original Mr. A v Orams was heard and a judgement
made in a South Cyprus court. ROC does not recognise the TRNC
so in theory it allegedly has jurisdiction over the whole island. Therefore, why shouldnt the case be heard, even if the court
does not recognise the Contract of Sale it must recognise a wrong has been done to a fellow EU citizen. The legal system has to be seen to be impartial otherwise how can it be taken seriously.
We welcome this idea pauline as it will enable us to get the details of the carpetbaggers for future writs.
yes bring it on, no loyalty amonst theives is there, oh dear.
Not only have you bought illegally, you now want to use the full force of the law to protect yourselves, bloody hell woman is there no shame on you people. Such hypocrites.
Masta, You may well be right – perhaps we are screwed but
if the ROC refuse to hear the case, then we must resort to
other measures, perhaps within the E.U.
I personally would advise all those who do not get justice
either in the TRNC or the ROC to join the ABAG ladies using the
American legal system I suppost it is not inconceivable that
there could be a way of pursuing the ROC using this route.
Stelios, What you seem to miss in your ranting is the fact that
the idea of buying exchange land properties was marketed extremely
well in the North and that it was a one sided exchange was not made clear. Yes, I know, it should have been checked more
thoroughly, but the fact is it wasnt. Have you never been guilty
of being too trusting – I guess not. If it gives you pleasure
to rejoice in someone elses misfortunes so be it – beware life is a great leveller.
You call the ex pats thieves yet you condone the theives who sold
to them. Strange values.
Stelios, one of the ideas in Pauline’s article is that there would only be need to pursue the GC trespassing on the TC’s land in the south if the ex-pat already had a writ issued against them. Thanks for the reminder though, to use a Cyprus/Turkish PO Box as an address and never to reveal the ex-pats UK address. I bet a lot of GCs will be cursing you now for helping car pet bangers avoid giving their addresses away.
Masta,
On the contrary, I don’t believe purchasers in the North are “screwed” at all. They have worked within an accepted legal framework to purchase their properties. IF the TRNC Government turn their back on this arrangement then might be the time for purchasers to protest to Turkey. But for now, what Apostolides has demonstrated is that the legal process doesn’t actually resolve anything. And an equivalent action against the RoC is also fraught with difficulties for TC’s or expats. (I have to laugh at your defence of the “6 month” rule – it clearly doesn’t make sense and isn’t “fair” .. and this has pretty much been accepted by the RoC following the Sofi settlement). So the only realistic ways forward are through a negotiated solution (Fat Chance it seems) or partition and an IPC type of approach to resolving the property issues.
hahahahahahaha
What are you on? hahahahahahaha
I have now learnt one more thing: In addition to humans drugs also affect blood sucking scavenging subhuman scum of the earth !!!
BK
PS. If you want any help for this contact me … I can help
BK,
Deeply insightful response, as usual.
Accepted legal framework !!!!You are a senile old fart arent you VH ?
Listen old codger , what is legal framewaork in the pseudo state occupied by a foreign country ? Do you not know you plonker that this part of Cyprus , according to international organizations has only one sovereign power and that is the RoC , ALBEIT IT HAS NO DOMESTIC JURISTICTION , BUT STILL THE LEGAL ENTITY OVER THE ENTIRE ISLAND.
I have met some bloody fools in my life but never ones such such the birdbrained Brits byuing stolen property and then defending their stupid actions.
Steady on YS – you’ll be giving yourself a heart attack!
What I said was that they have worked within an accepted legal framework. It may not be accepted by you but there is most definitely a legal framework in the TRNC allowing people living there to go about their daily life – get married, write wills, agree contracts and yes, purchase property. This de facto state of affairs has also been recognised outside the TRNC. I’m well aware of the RoC position but being the legal entity with no domestic jurisdiction doesn’t provide a solution for Mr Apostolides.
If you are so certain of your position GCs – why do you all sound like scared rabbits – are you afraid a test case just might
succeed – what is the worst that can happen – the test case loses.
How does that alter the situation? Nothing ventured nothing gained.
But if the ex pat wins in the south where the judgement can
and will be acted on……………………………….
By the way – for those of you so concerned about the welfare of
ex pats (fellow EU citizens0 most have PO Boxes and I cannot speak
for other people but my post arrives via my Post Box very efficiently.
Yiannis
Why aren’t you rejoicing.
If there wern’t such bird brained fools as us – you wouldn’t
sound so intelligent. I am joking. You actually sound like
Victor Meldrew.
You do make one good point though, if GC has jurisdiction over
whole of the island, why shouldnt the ex pats take advantage of it.
Yiannis
correction on last post – if GC is the legal entity over the whole
island not jurisdiction. We already know the GC jursidction
stops at the border!
Vince,
I know of a TC who did precisely what you said: Took points and then turned around and sold the land in the north and in the south. He is a wanted man in the north, and though he has family that lives in the north he would be arrested immediately. They cross to see him in the south. A bit of a touchy situation as he comes from a prominent TC family. So it has happened.
Thanks for that information Robert – I cannot say I am surprised, disappoointed yes.
So you bloodsucking, scum of the earth GCs who not only condone
theft but give this thief succour – how many more like him are
you aiding and abetting. You have the nerve to look down your
nose at us with your holier than thou attitudes. Shame on you.
Shame on his family for still consorting with him. So the law
is only obeyed when it suits you. Sleep well do you?
Sorry meant thanks for the information Thomas – it made me sooo
angry. Sorry Robert – both fine strong names.
so there are 6 options on the table (and some combinations) of:
a. action against the RoC in an RoC court – no case/no chance
b. Action VS TC in RoC – for fraud in receiving moneys for land that was not his/hers
c. Action vs Turkey in RoC – no juristiction
d. action against the RoC in Eu Court – No case
e. Action VS TC in EU – no case/no HR violation
f. Action vs Turkey in EU – based on A VS O, fraud/misrepresentation – your best chance
You could ofcourse go to a “trnc” court but it would not solve the problem of double selling, and at the end of the day why do you care ? If you are already residing on “stolen” property what is the difference who originally owns it? The issue here is to resolve the O VS A, irrespective of the original owner.
VH, if you feel the 6 month rule is unreasonable(unfair) protection for the RoC to take then you are truly deluded regarding the Cyprus issue as a whole. Ofcourse, like you said the 6 month rule cannot stand in an RoC court. There can be no derogaation to the HR of ownership. The RoC gov. will try to place all sorts of obstacles for the implementation of this, and in my view, rightly so. The TC will remain the owners of the land but will be denied usage one way or another.
I cannot take you seriously if you are of the opinion that the TC should have their own land in the south and the GC land in the north. it makes no sense.
I will say this again for the ex-pats here, your only real chance of doing something about your case, once action has been brough against you in the RoC (and you are forced to vacate), is to piggy-back on the O vs A case and sue Turkey in an EU court for fraudulant sale of property. This, in order to recover losses.
ME, “I cannot take you seriously if you are of the opinion that the TC should have their own land in the south and the GC land in the north. it makes no sense.”
You are right but if a GC issues a writ for their property in the north exchanged for the TC’s property in the south and it has been passed on to an ex-pat then I think what Pauline is saying is that property in the south should pass to the ex-pat to compensate for their loss or to be used in a tit-for-tat response to the writ.
VinceHugo,
I was as insightful as serious was the article!!!
Do you realize what your are actually saying? You are nothing more than thieves but unlike “common thieves” you found a dummy state that allows you to show off your stolen goods, to defend your “right” to steal and keep your stolen goods and on top of everything you dream about using the legal system to benefit even more and “seek justice”.
Oh, and you also want me to insightful!
Hahahahahahaha
You talk about “legal frameworks”. The mafia has an equivalent “legal framework” that they use within the organization even though they call it something else. Does that make it legal in the eyes of law you moron? How legal could the legal framework be of a non existing state you pathetic fools?
Pauline,
Why don’t you come to Baron Kyri with all your details so that we can test your theories? I am so scared I will pay for you to try it because until you do I will not be able to sleep at night.
You know, the truth is that deep down inside we know that we stole your properties, we are doing you wrong, you are morally and ethically and legally right and we are wrong. We all know this and we cannot sleep at night so please come and save us from our misery. We are the subhuman scum of the earth !
Guys,
I am not sure if you all believe the stupidities you say but it is scientifically proven that if you repeat a lie too many times it becomes reality. Is it what you are trying to do you Muppets?
BK
Masta,
Why do you think I am “truly deluded regarding the Cyprus issue” because of my comments about the 6 month rule. You’ve accepted that it wouldn’t stand up to close scrutiny in any reasonable court. I fully understand that processing any claim for the return of TC land will require time and scrutiny BUT how can the RoC insist that the applicant has to come and live in South Cyprus while this paperwork is being pushed around. It just isn’t defendable (as I think the RoC have already acknowledged).
More telling is your final comment to me ” The TC will remain the owners of the land but will be denied usage one way or another” So whilst the GC’s are up in arms about the obstacles now placed in front of Apostolides (which IMO were apparent from the outset) they are playing exactly the same games – whilst telling the world that the TC properties are just sitting there waiting for the return of their original owner.
If the GCs think that it is ok for the TCs to have their cake and eat it, then you are morally corrupt. Whether you think the ex pats paid enough for the property in the North is irrelevent – the price was agreed and paid. If the TC had every intention, at that point of claiming back their property in the south, then they could not have truly believed the land they were selling
in the North was theirs to sell, so it was a premeditated crime for which they should be punished. The ex pat, if they lose their home in the north, should be compensated. Some GCs however think
that they should loose everything as a form of punishment. Theres
mob justice for you.
to be clear:
legally speaking, the ex-pat issue has nothing to do with the tc ownership in the south.
The fact that you seek to receive compensation for you costs relating to fallout of the orams case relates to the above issue only to the extend that the TC has owneship somewhere in the EU ( that is if you bring a case against the TC)
The rational that you can get the TC land in the south(via relinguishing the land in the north) as compensation is rubbish .
You might,however, get your money back if (via court order) the any EU territory TCs property is sold (in auction for example) and you receive money as result of that sale. For argument sake, the same TC may turn around and pay your costs in cash. THIS NEEDS TO BE CLEAR so as we do not have a kindergarden conversation.
You do not, in any way shape or form, have rights over the TC land in the south (or anywhere in the north even under “trnc” laws).
You are entititled to monetary compensation because you were defrauded by either a TC (RoC citizen) or Turkey.
We can talk about moral justice until the cows come home (its been 35 years for some).
VH, I forsee, over the next 1-2 years the “borders” closing because of this TC land in the south issue. The GC will be unable to stop the TC from claiming land in the south so they need to make a political move to stop this from happening. The TC land is monetarily insignificant to the RoC but politically, the goverment that allows this to happen will suffer a political blow.
BTW I still think you are way off regarding moral justice, you are ignoring the fact that the GC do not have the choice to claim and use their land in the north (how can you have missed that?!). And that, clearly, Turkey feels that the land in the north does not belong to the GC anymore (contrary to the position of the RoC regarding TC land in the south).
You will not earn my respect (if you care) unless we can have an HONEST conversation about things. Otherwise this would be a waste of time and lots and lots of wishful thinking…
Masta,
Appreciate your polite and reasoned response on this. I too would welcome an honest conversation.
On your first point about legal ownership by an expat of TC land in the South, I appreciate that it is not possible to make a legal connection, primarily because the matter spans two different (and unaligned) legal systems. However standing away from this specific problem, and ignoring for a minute the moral rights and wrongs, the TC in question signed away his/her rights to their property in the South in exchange for land/property in the North. The TC then sold it on, effectively receiving compensation for their property in the South. At this point, who is the legal owner of the property in the South. RoC law says it’s the TC but TRNC law (I believe) says that it now belongs to the TRNC Government. So if the expat is subsequently challenged and it is determined that the land he/she believed they had bought (through the legal system established by the TRNC Government) is not theirs then if the TRNC retain ownership of the original TC deed in the South they are themselves guilty of fraud. (After all they have laws preventing the TC from reclaiming it once it has been exchanged with them). The decent thing to do should this situation arise is to (in some way) pass ownership of the property in the South to the expat (or at least provide compensation for this land to the expat).
I imagine you are not a fan of Annan, but it is interesting that this sort of approach for handling property on both sides was a key part of the Annan V.
With regard to closing the border to prevent TC’s claiming land and moral justice, I understand that it is extremely difficult for a GC to claim and use their land in the North (although the IPC route does include the possibility of restitution). But you are suggesting (and I think you are right) that the RoC Government are likely to make it equally difficult for TC’s (or their successors in title) to make use of their land in the South. I realise that this situation has arisen through different routes for the two “sides” but it does seem that the net result is the same for both TC’s and GC’s right now. I think the RoC position is that land can only be returned “as part of a (political) solution”. But what happens if that political solution includes an Annan-like approach to property settlement – the “solution” may be that they receive compensation OR the right to keep their “exchanged” property. In the event that they have sold this property on then the successor in title would inherit such rights . . .
Masta
I was not suggesting the land in the south would be given to the
ex pat, but it is an asset that could be ring fenced, and as you say, auctioned to realise capital with which to pay any award
made to the ex pat by a court of law. Of course the land was not
and never will be wanted by the ex pat, in any event with the
difference in land values I would suspect it would yield a sum
in excess of that required to recompense the victim.
How refreshing to have a GC who doesnt rubbish everything we
say simply because we live in the North. Thank you.
VH,
The annan plan would have legally failed to stand a judgment in the EHRC. The A vs O case showed us this.
There can be no derogations from basic HRs (property or other). (Mind you the RoC NEEDS to have some derogations of HR themselves in order to make any political settlement work, which is in itself ironic).
The A vs O brought Christofias in a v difficult position as it does not allow (anymore) for plans similar to the Annan V plan to be placed on the table. This was the reason why the RoC did not ever put such a lawsuit forward earlier(along with so many other type of lawsuits that can be brough to the ECHR). The lawsuit was filed against the wishes of the political establishment in the RoC and was supported only after it was underway since they had (politically) no other choice. Kadounas stated this many times “semi-privately”.
This in effect means that people from Kyrenia now have some hope of getting their houses back(in theory)! For a very long time this was unthinkable.
Of course, at the same time, it makes the solution of the Cyprus issue SO much harder.
The x-pats situation is but a cherry on the cake on this issue.
Their best chance is for the status quo to remain as is and hope of a “tawain” type of deal. (In my view this will not happen either (or it will take many many decades)).
Now, post a political settlement, it is concievable(but unlikely) that people like the Orams could gain the right (under some compensation agreement) to live in “their” villa again.
I really cannot see how the expats will find a way to securitise their stay (nevermind ownership) unless they move against Turkey in the ECHR (in case they are evicted from “their” house)
Maybe the case will be made under “everyone vs Turkey”
it makes noone happy to see old fart brits suffer. Not even the 2 little piggies deserve to loose their money and their peace of mind.
It is, however, the priority for almost 1M people to find peace.The selling off of GC property creates irreversible damage to that end and it must stop.
It has been said before and I’ll say it again.
The handlers of stolen goods are more guilty than the original theif.
Paulines idea is pretty crap when she want to go to court saying, hey I bought this stolen property but please arrest the original TC.
You guys are having a laugh!
Channing;
As for postal poboxes etc, if it gets legal you need names of people passport numbers/IDs and so on. it is not an anonimous process.
Further, if you want a P.O.Box in RoC you have to give your passport or ID details in which case we would know who you are.
It doesn’t take a genious to see that taking a single letter from the P.Obox with a court order to find the receipients address details, Doh.
Cheers I hope that makes you happy.
Masta,
Re. Annan, there were derogations (property and other) in the Annan Plan which, as I understand it had the backing of the international community (UN, EU ..). Section VII on property opens by stating that the “United Cyprus Republic shall .. request the ECHR to strike out any proceedings”.
If you are saying that there can be no derogations of HR in any new solution proposed then I really think that we can wave a solution goodbye.
It seems to me that the A v O case has, yes, made it possible in theory to return to land, but in reality has made it harder.
As I said before, it seems that any progress made towards restitution now (other than the IPC) is dependent upon a “solution” but that solution (realistically) will have to work with the “realities on the ground” making restitution unlikely for many. (The alternative is the creation of a large number of “double-refugees” on both sides of the island.)
I can certainly understand why the RoC were uncomfortable about A v O!
In the meantime, I know there are some expats who plan to resort to taking Turkey to court. But I believe there are many, many more who are prepared to trust the TRNC/Turkey, sit tight and see how this increasingly messy situation plays out.
I do understand your point about expats being a very small part of the issue, with 1M people looking to find peace. But does it not concern you that mass property restitution as part of any solution is likely to place peace in serious jeopardy? Is there really a workable solution which can include wholesale return of land to original owners?
Finally I do appreciate your point that selling off GC property creates irreversible damage but I fear that that damage has already been done. I think it’s also understandable that, faced with many years of economic isolation and looking for a way forward, TC’s have resorted to their two key assets – tourism and construction.
ME, I would be interested in your thoughts on this…
It seems to me that unless the ROC recognizes the TRNC government all of this is just talk and will continue to be so for the next 50+ years. It is tactically a position not to recognize but effectively in the end to do so would mean the TRNC gets nothing and the ROC gets everything. Legally that might be a position but in reality I doubt whether that will create a movement forward to resolution. There has been a 36 year economic block and where are we? Mr. A’s verdict shows that property values have increased in the north during that time. An economic block has not worked.
Now if the ROC recognizes the TRNC there will be a discussion on a solution which will be all encompassing and in a resolution legally binding. In that discussion, there will be settlement made on land. If anything Mr. A’s case has shown where the faults are and given clarity to what needs to be addressed. There will be aspects the ROC does not like and aspects that the TRNC does not like, but in the name of resolution will agree to and be binding. Land rights will be in this mix and the right of the TC to sell land will be addressed. What was decided in Britain is not going to be how this final solution will look as that had no compromise. And if compromise is not going to be part of the solution that will harden that line across the island and take us right back to 74.
I find interesting your statement on border closings. I had not thought of it in the perspective that you convey. But I have felt, whereas many people here think the situation is moving toward resolution, I believe just the opposite. Had Turkey been admitted to the EU the situation would be different, but now Turkey is moving away from the EU not towards it. And the EU needs a stable Turkey to heat their homes in the winter, conduct trade, etc. It is no longer Turkey going to the doors of the EU but the EU will be coming to the doors of Turkey. And so I see as problematic your last “best choice” action. I have done work with Turks and if anything they will take advantage of you the moment they have the advantage to take. I also think we could look back on this in history and say the Mr. A situation was the beginning of a process that unwinds this whole thing.
Stelios, “The handlers of stolen goods are more guilty than the original theif” not according to the lawyers. What do you call a thief who in court says I didn’t pay for the stolen goods, they were a gift, so I am innocent? PO boxes in the TRNC do not need an address. Again, I repeat, the idea is that if a GC comes bearing a writ then you use the legal system. Your address would be known by then.
Stelios
You dare question the morals of the ex pats; you are so bitter and twisted that you think a receiver of stolen goods (however unwittingly) is worse than the original thief – what are you on? To compound your odd thinking you probably are one of those who
think its ok for that same thief to be rewarded by giving them
the propety in the south too. True justice would be for the
thief to move in next door to you and then rob you blind.
At least the ex pats did part with money for their homes which
is more than the double dippers will ever do – they just take.
Masta
You make a lot of sense except was it really necessary to call anyone an old fart – would you call your mother that – you will
get old too you know. That said, I do thank you for taking the matter seriously.
Pauline , I think it is time that you realized the high level of contempt that Brits who have bought our lands and properties in the occupied parts of our island are held by the G/Cs.
Most all G/Cs have some connection with the UK , and a a very large number have blood connections with the Brits.
The loathing that surrounds the Brits in the occupied parts is shared by almost all , my late wife , English through and through , although she would never utter a vile word against anyone she did nevertheless share my own antipathy towards those whose uncornern of the realities in Cyprus were so blatantly provocative.
Five thousand plus Cypriots became the victims of the Turkish invasion , almost 200 thousand were forced to abandon their ancestral homes and you and the rest of the unceremonious Brits wonder why we find you so dreadfully obnoxious.
THINK ABOUT IT .
May I also , once again stress that I consider the T/Cs to be my compatriots and the victims too of the extremists and foreign country motherland bullshitters , the T/Cs are indigenous to Cyprus such as all other Cypriots are , you how ever are persona non grada .
Nothing personal you understand …
Got it Yiannis
All Cypriots, both sides of the border are above the law, therefore
can do no wrong.
All Brits who made the mistake of buying from your perfect
brethren in the North (buying NOT stealing) are beneath contempt
and should be shot.
You, Yiannis are from the planet Zog and its way past your bedtime.
Cocoa, multivitamin and up the wooden hill you go. Night nightxx
Wrong ! Cocoa is not for me …baby …
A fine Claret is my poison , then I dont suppose you would know a fine claret if one accidentally knocked on your door !!
As for our ..perfect brethren let me tell you that the decent T/C who still regards Cyprus as the homeland would not sink so low and sell stolen land . Most T/Cs had to survive , like cattle they were forced out of their ancestral homes and ushered into G/C properties , the pseudo authorities then embarked upon confiscating their legal deeds to properties they owned in the free part of Cyprus. Having confiscated their legal deeds and by force made them change their names thus ensuring they could never claim back their properties , they , the TA , embarked on their long planned strategy of annexing the occupied part . They have another thing coming if they think the International community will remain idle at such blatant disregard of international law, only the cheaprats will support them , and I think Bin efing Laden might do too !!
thomas,
your perspective on things is quite different than mine (and probably most gcs). what you are suggestion is a pre-negotiated division of the island where the RoC reconginses a sepparate state in exchange for land and immigration policies. It may surprise you to know that quite a few GCs feel the same way.
you mentioned a lot of things, I will try to put things across as briefly as possible
a. The RoC cannot recognise the “trnc”. It will however recognise a tc federal state that will be equally participating in the transformed now federal RoC state. This kind of “recongnision” of the “trnc” wont happen until a solution is signed. Not before. The new state will be a transformation of the current RoC state, not a new one. This is importantant for many reasons. Mostly because of the risk of the solution not working and the TC state breaking off in the future.
b. Our perspective on things is this: on signing a solution recognising this new state tc state will effectively legitimise what happened in 74. A huge compromise as far as the GC are concerned. There will be a deal done regarding the property (and its usage). The a vs o now largely dictates on how this issue will be dealt with (or so the GC hope). There are other issues that are much more important and difficult than the propoerty issue, namely administration, security and voting weightings.
c. the “embargo” has worked, but not absolutely. Pls remember that the lifting of this happened in 2003 with the agreement of the RoC. Tukrey objects to using the options given (i.e. using the RoC as a gateway). This is in order not to make the “TRNC” dependant on the RoC economically in the near future. Doing that would compromise the negotiation for the TCs.
d. Greece and Cyprus both want Turkey in the EU. It’s not just talk. Ofcourse both expect that T. will have to make necessary changes and will eventually stop being the bully that it has been for so long now. I dont think there will be a CY solution unless T. makes a turn to a better more westernised approach to its foreign policy (never mind internal human rights).
e. The gcs desperately want a solution but not at any cost. We will give up a large ( disproportionate) governance to the TC but we will not accept north cyprus to be turkified. We will accept the fact that we will not get what we had back (property) but will not have TC rule the north and co-rule the south.
f. Its been 35 years that this tragedy has happened (it didnt just happen btw). We are almost at the point where “we have nothing left to loose”. We dont want to risk our current reasonable well being and to risk instability and more troubles. We would rather fight this to the end and make the north see that they will be better off sharing rather than choosing self-rrule and division. I think that TC WILL BE better off within a federal state EU member state. The TC majority seems to agree (see 2004 vote).
We do not want a bunch of crazy nationalistic paranoid Turks causing problems. I truly believe GCs have accepted the fact that they will share the island and are not a threat to TCs.
there is more but it will have to way till tom.
it bed time.
Yiannis
Using your words, a decent TC would not sell stolen land, well
judging from the number of expats living in homes sold to them
on allegedly stolen land, there cannot be many decent TCs left.
You really believe that so many elderly people got together to
conspire against you by buying ‘stolen’ land, their sole aim
being to defraud you and yours – get a reality check. As I said in my article they are just ordinary folk who find themselves
caught up in an extraordinary situation – nothing more sinister than that.
I believe you and those like you need someone to hate and at the moment ex pats are your chosen target. When this is eventually
sorted (maybe not in our lifetime) some other group will become
the target of the hatred. God help us all.
Wrong again Pauline !
When I first discovered CY44 I was stunned to note that so many Brits of progressive ages had so much animocity against the G/Cs , I could not believe what I was reading , here were people that I thought I knew having lived in London for almost 50 years , gone to school here and married into English , theses people not only hated the G/Cs but propaged the Turkish propaganda refering constantly to the Turkish “intervention” to stop the “on going massacre ” !!No conflict existed for years before the Turkish u=invasion , in fact 6 prior to the invasion there were no casualties from either side.
I came across people who I decided were all without exeption Yobs , uncouth , ignorant of the Cyprob and “Im all right Jack types “.
I joined the forum and lasted a couple of days , banned for life for telling the truth.
You say I need someone to hate , well I do not have that destructive need for such an emotional upheaval but must confess that your type , all those whose brains were on strike at the time , who purchased property in the occupied part of Cyprus make me sick. Here we have an island which was invaded by Turkey some 36 years ago , thousands killed amd tens of thousands displaced , refugees in their own country , victims of extremists actions , but what do the birbrained Brits think , I know exactly . dont give a toss , the beer is cheap , the sun is plentifull , housing far superior to what they were accustomed to back in the UK , villas with swimming pools , jacuzis and bidets , facilities they could only dream about back in the UK. They are totally disinterested in the morality of their actions , couldnt care less , do I hate them , well I wouldnt exactly say I love them , to me they are low down yobs and I firmly believe that the RoC OUGHT TO DECLARE THEM PERSONA NON GRADA .
Pauline,
Supply and demand, If the cheapskates had not created the demand the TCs would not have sold up. Please, so what if you paid, did you pay the real full price, heck no.
You go into a pub buy a dvd player for 1/2 price, so that makes you excempt from the law does it. If there were no buyers the thieves would have no reason to steal. of course I don’t justify the thieves actions, but I abhor the recievers even more.
Channing
Bring on the court cases and we’ll see if we can get the details or not.
A P.O.Box in some pseudo puppet state is meaning less and invalid.
Cheers
YS, I’m confused about why you don’t just accept that the law courts will deal with people who have broken the trespass law. Well actually, I’m not confused, you have an irrational hate which does not allow you to see the difference between the victim and the exploiter. It’s a bit like owning a car showroom and having 20 cars stolen. In the end all 20 end up in the hands of others who have had their cars stolen, given to them for free by the thieves. 15 of those keep the cars and 5 sell them on, 3 to Brits and 2 to TCs who never lost cars. You rant about the 3 Brits who were stupid enough to buy stolen cars and somehow worship the 20 people who originally received the stolen goods for free and the 2 TCs who you give special protected status. You, YS, are a sub-conscious racist, the worse type of racist. You explain the reason that you can’t be a racist is that you know some Brits and you don’t hate them, just like racist white Americans who jokingly say, “some of the best blacks are my friends.” Don’t tell me that I can’t take the truth, I know the difference between truth and bias and you will forever chant your racist slogans like the worse of the football yobs on the terraces who single out black players on the opposing team – “birdbrained Brits.”
Jerry has recently been told that a TC BOUGHT his property in the north, they weren’t given it as compensation, would you like to have a go at him to show your lack of racism? Go one, do what you do best, ignore what I have just written – A TC BOUGHT GC PROPERTY IN THE NORTH – get back to your racist chants, you’ve never changed since your EOKA days. I declare you a racist.
SI, read this slowly, If a GC issues a writ against a Brit he will know their address, if the Brit has “exchange” property then they should use that to do the same as is being done to them – biblical isn’t it.
MC,
Below are things you already know. i will repeat anyway.
The ex-pats are the only ones “under attack” simply because the rest who took what was not theirs are hiding behind 40K turkish troops and a pseudo state.
Ex-pats dont have that protection exactly. So this is not a case of racism. it’s a case of GCs trying to get what is rightfully theirs.
it would make no difference if the ex-pats were spaniard, italians or greek. They just happen to be brits.
I understand how finding yourselves the targets of the hatred and frustration of 600K people may seem unjustified. You are in effect taking on the brunt of the anger and sense of injustice building up for 35 years.
The name calling and the objectional adjectives are nothing but a manifestation of this.
Dare I suggest: “dont take this personally?” Well not really..
it would be as moronic as someone telling me
“Dont take it personally that we killed your father, raped your sister, taken all you had”.
This is what we are dealing here, death, rape and theft. no less.
Your presence in the north fascilitates the plans of those who commited these acts by financing their economy.
Im sure the expats in the north are perfectly nice people (as 99% of the people on this planet are). They saw an opportunity and went for it thinking that they are harming noone.
We simply cannot be by-standers to what is going on. Dont ask us to do that.
Malcolm , you think that I , a G/C that was married to an English lady for more than 40 years , a G/C whose nephews , neices ,daughter in law , in-laws are all English , and yet somehow they all tolerate a racist !!!
Malcolm , expressing my utter disgust at the behaviour of those Brits who contrary to international law not only purchased dubious properties in occupied Cyprus but set about degrading the people of Cyprus , the G/Cs that is , forgetting that the invasion of 1974 left thousands of people dead and that the UN immediately condemned the invasion which the likes of you support.
That is why I and all other G/Cs consider you immoral and enemies of Cyprus , nothing to do with race mate and you know that.
Actually, ME, I find nothing to complain about in the way you have written your comments. They are fair comments without a trace of racism; my target was YS. I do however disagree with a few of your observations. For example, you seem to believe that the ex-pat financing of the north’s economy is somehow to blame for perpetuating the Cyprus Problem. If this is so then I’d like to add two other targets for you fair criticism – the EU and the GC government. The EU have/are contributing €259m and the GCs, by opening the crossings, are also contributing. Now in the case of ex-pats this contribution is rapidly dwindling so, by using your argument, their “blame” is reduced and others perhaps could be targeted.
Of course that is not your purpose on this website and I look forward to your further observations. Personally, I thought the problem would be sorted out in April 2004 and was surprised at the result, although I now see nothing wrong with the GCs gambling for a better deal. I believe their risky decision to vote against the Annan Plan will not bring them a better deal and that they should be blamed, for example, for not taking the opportunity for solving this problem. If they do get a better deal in our lifetimes then they will of course be vindicated.
YS, same old same old, and what about the TC who bought Jerry’s property? A racist picks on a particular racial group in a situation where two people of different races are doing the same thing, for example racist chanting by yobs at football matches. You pick out the Brits and ignore the TCs who BOUGHT GC property. I don’t care what argument you use you are still guilty of being discriminating in your abuse. If it was not abuse then I would treat you differently. If you said that TCs and Brits are… then you are attacking actions not people, that is acceptable. I’ve said this several times to you but as your abuse, and you, are being treated as a joke I am allowing your comments be published.
Dare I say – whats done is done.
Now lets find a positive way to undo it with as little damage
to all involved as possible. Is that so unreasonable.
As you know I have already won my Breach of Contract action
so maybe I am not the one to say this – someone has to. I am
no longer a target, but it does not stop me feeling for all those who are.
Stelios – One can talk to you till they are blue in the face
but you will never agree that prices in the south DO NOT
mirror those in the north, not because of the TA but because
there is no infrastructure, no amenities, no theatres, no libraries. In short all the things that add value to property.
The standard of building is not even close to that of the south.
I know I am wasting my breath but a savvy person wil know its
all about LOCATION. You just need someone to blame and the ex pats
are it. In many ways I feel sorry for you – having endured
what you have as a nation – you just cannot get past it. Your
future is rosy, cant you see that?
No Malcolm , you are dreadfully wrong.
The T/Cs DID NOT chose to be in the occupied parts , they were forced to move there by the unfolding developments following the Turkish invasion .
Many if not all left their properties in southern Cyprus and on moving to the occupied parts were galvanized by a corrupt ” administration ” to surrender their legal deeds for the properties that they left behind , you on the other hand acted upon your own free will and purchased what you surely would have known as dubious properties.
The accusation that I’m a racist or anti Brit does not hold and you know that , in fact you are being rediculous since you must know , I have said it many times , of my English “blood “connections .
Yiannis
I should think by now everyone who contributes here knows your
history, your lifestyle, your views, your inside leg measurement
(maybe not that). We have heard it all so many times.
For once come up with something positive, you have so much to
be thankful for.
Yiannis, moving to the UK has done wonders for some parts of your anatomy…your mouth has become enlarged to such an extent that it can now enclose both feet at the same time, while continuing to shout “plonker!”
Do you really believe the utter drivel you post here? Are you seriously trying to convince us that the TCs were “forced” to move to the occupied parts, and “left their properties in southern Cyprus” to do so? Would you be meaning that they were forced to leave their enclaves and concentration camps and move to the north?
That must have been gut-wrenching for them….
Stelios
As per the GC way you are putting the cart before the horse.
A prospective vendor puts his property on sale with an agent,
a prospective purchaser visits said agent to see what is on offer, so you see supply in this instance comes before demand – duh.
Lets take your scenario a step further – the purchaser then puts
a ball and chain around the ankle of the vendor, forces him to
sell at the price he is asking, then diabolically insists that he
signs a contract and forces, yes forces the poor captive vendor
to bank the money for the house. Now if that were not bad enough
the purchaser then forces the vendor to spend that money on
essentials like a top of the range 4×4 or a mercedes. Is there
no end to the cruelty of the purchaser.
The above is an extract from Fairy Tales for the Feeble Minded.
Ian , I still note that you are still posting crap , not that I expected much else from an old senile codger such as you.
Now , what did you say I learned in the UK ?
I tell you what I learned in all my years in the UK , firstly that this is the greatest nation on earth when it comes to tolerance , law and order , kindness to people and animals and justice for all . Unfortunately some plonkers such as you who perhaps were born here , have learned sweet fa.
What the hell do you know about the T/Cs that were forced into the occupied parts by the T/A who requested the British army to provide armed escorts to T/Cs so that they would move into the occupied parts otherwise , the T/A threatened they would do so themselves.
Yes many T/Cs were forced into enclaves even before the invasion out of fear from the extreme EOKA B and the Grey wolves -TMT.
Plonker , both communities did their own share of destruction and intimidation , both communities had their own brand of fanatics , we all know this irrefutable fact.
You however and the rest of the cheapskates were not forced by anyone to come to the occupied part of Cyprus and practically take arms against the G/Cs .
When I decide that you or anyone else has a brain with more than one cell then I might enter a debate without throwing justified insults against you.In the meantime rest assured that I have learned a great deal here in the UK including THE ABILITY TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN CLASS AND SUBDIVISIONS OF CLASS !!!
So that enough tome is given to Ian to read this , he is a bit slow you know , here it is again :
Ian , I still note that you are still posting crap , not that I expected much else from an old senile codger such as you.
Now , what did you say I learned in the UK ?
I tell you what I learned in all my years in the UK , firstly that this is the greatest nation on earth when it comes to tolerance , law and order , kindness to people and animals and justice for all . Unfortunately some plonkers such as you who perhaps were born here , have learned sweet fa.
What the hell do you know about the T/Cs that were forced into the occupied parts by the T/A who requested the British army to provide armed escorts to T/Cs so that they would move into the occupied parts otherwise , the T/A threatened they would do so themselves.
Yes many T/Cs were forced into enclaves even before the invasion out of fear from the extreme EOKA B and the Grey wolves -TMT.
Plonker , both communities did their own share of destruction and intimidation , both communities had their own brand of fanatics , we all know this irrefutable fact.
You however and the rest of the cheapskates were not forced by anyone to come to the occupied part of Cyprus and practically take arms against the G/Cs .
When I decide that you or anyone else has a brain with more than one cell then I might enter a debate without throwing justified insults against you.In the meantime rest assured that I have learned a great deal here in the UK including THE ABILITY TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN CLASS AND SUBDIVISIONS OF CLASS !!!
Yiannis, I didn’t say you learned anything in the UK. In fact, I don’t think you did. You certainly didn’t learn any part of natural British politeness, nor did you learn to carry out a reasonable debate without spewing insults, abuse and bad language with every second sentence.
And I see you’re still at the same boring, repetitious old spin b/s too. “Both communities did this” and “both communities did that”, again as though the evil was scored at 30-all, when in fact it was far more like 40-15 your way.
I note that in some previous posts you conceded that Enosis was a bad thing, but that now most GCs repudiated it and even laughed about it in the coffee shops. So now that you have magnanimously conceded that Enosis was wrong, you somehow feel that all the GC evil has been washed away and your position has miraculously reversed so that you are now the aggrieved party who has been wronged by Turkey.
Apart from the fact that I was actually born half a world away from the UK, to tell me that I have practically taken arms against the GCs is such garbage it shouldn’t really be dignified with a response.
Yiannis, you condemn your intellect with every sentence you post.
Ian , what I said about ENOSIS is that with hindsight the ultimate goal of the liberation struggle against the British in 1955-59 was wrong. The goal was wrong but not the aspirations of the 80% of the Cypriot poplulation. In a democracy the majority rules , the majority aspired for ENOSIS , nothing wrong in the overwhelming majority expressing a desire as to how their future should progress . I supported ENOSIS then I vehemently oppose ENOSIS now along with the overwhelming majority of the Cypriot peopla.
You try to lecture me on British politeness I suggest you first examine your own personage because from where I stand you and the rest of the cheapskates are the most illeterate and impolite peasanrts I have ever come acroos. Your posts are full to the bream with revulsion against the Cypriot people so when you post absolute shit dont expect roses from me old boy.
Now do me a favour and piss off out of Cyprus you acrimoniums birdbrained hooligan .
Gawd Yiannis, where do you start? “illeterate, peasanrts, bream, acrimoniums…”!
“In a democracy the majority rules , the majority aspired for ENOSIS, nothing wrong in the overwhelming majority expressing a desire as to how their future should progress.”
Nothing at all wrong with a majority expressing a desire, Yiannis, but everything wrong with a majority bullying, discriminating, abusing and murdering to achieve those desires.
Please forgive me if I decline your gracious request to leave Cyprus, and continue to enjoy my lovely, five-year-old villa with wonderful views of the Mediterranean and the mountains, built along with a dozen others on formerly-vacant scrubland.
For which I paid, I might add, €135,000.
Ian,
Don’t forget that you are “PERSONA NON GRADA”
How may I ask did you formulate your opinions of the discriminating and abusing against the T/Cs ? Is this how the Brits in the occupied parts of Cyprus spend their time indoctrinated by Turkish propaganda ?
How may I ask do you know that the land that your very very cheap villa is built on is not owned by one of those G/Cs who were forced to leave for fear of their lives , after all more than 5000 were butchered by the advancing Turkish army. You wouldn’t give a toss you English yob would you just as long as you have your villa , sunshine and booze !!
Abusing and murdering !!! Do you know the total fatalities of the intercommunal conflict , would it surprise you that an almost equal number of G/Cs and T/Cs were the victims ?
May I suggest a book by a well known and respected T/C journalist , Sevgul Uludag , “OYSTERS WITH THE MISSING PEARLS”
So mate put your Sun down and go find this book , easily available , written by a Turkish Cypriot, learn something you Plonker !
YS,
I can certainly agree with you on one thing. Expats have been reading some very different history books to the ones you take your “facts” from. Although your facts don’t seem entirely consistent. For example, were the TC’s legal deeds “confiscated” or where they “galvanised into surrendering” them. Very different stories.
The suggestion that expats are “practically taking up arms against GC’s” whilst you are spitting out bigotry,venom and hatred is almost laughable.
If you really are representative of all GCs then I fear for the future of Cyprus. Happily I don’t believe you are and I think your continued postings on here will be seen by all for what they are.
Vince , steady on old boy , I take my facts from historical books written by both T/C moderates and G/C moderates. May I ask where do you take your facts from .
I thought your grasp of the English language would have allowed you to fully comprehend my statement on the method used by the Turkish army in order that the T/Cs would surrender their deeds of property owned by them in the free part , also you might have understood that ” galvanized into surrendering and confiscated ” mean exactly the same thing .The T/Cs were politely…enticed to hand over their deeds in exchange for a roof over their heads , forced to then change their surnames , unheard of in modern times , and lied contemptously by the so called authorities until the vats majority emigrated reducing the number of T/Cs in Cyprus to below 80 thousand.
I have suggested , metaphoricaly , that British yobs , not ex-pats as you say but British cheapskates have taken arms against the RoC, your comments as well as those of other yobs exonerate consummately my denunciations .
What makes you think your are an ex-pat !!! You are a cheapskate with a single cell brain who took residence in a part of the world recognized by NONE and saturated by British low down crooks and cheapskates.
I do hope I have made my self clear , should you however feel that you may be in need of some lessons in the finer usage of the English language I would be more than happy to oblige !
Carry on digging your hole YS. You know nothing about me.
But with the (vain) hope of providing you with a bit of an English language lesson here are a couple of definitions for you (Collins Dictionary)
galvanize – to stimulate into action
confiscate – to seize (property) by authority
Same thing . . really?
Yiannis
You would grasp anything and twist it to fit your scenario.
There was avery good reason for the name changing which I give
in the article. A change, I would add that would not have been
necessary if you had been able to live together and the TA had not
found it necessary to intervene to ensure the survival of the
Turkish Cypriot race. If they had not, 36 years on, worrying about their name change would have been irrelevent, they would not exist.
And Yiannis, I’ll thank you to be more accurate when referring to me, too!
I’m not an English yob, I’m an Australian yob.
Ian , my apologies mate , I shall rephrase , you are an Australia yob presumably a descentant of a Brit yob !!!
Paulene , you are talking from the back of your dorsal .
SIX YEARS BEFORE TURKEY INVADED THERE WAS NO CONFLICT , NO FATALITIES DUE TO INTERCOMMUNAL CONFLICT.
Get this in your feeble head and stop talking absolute b..t.
The number of fatalities during the conflict years was about the same , no more than 350 per site. Why do you and the rest of the cheapskates keep regurgitating the same rubbish , which side to you think you are helping ?
Stick to something less testing to your pittiful brain in future , write something constructive like cruelty to animals , bird killing which is a national pastime to all Cypriots.
The people of Cyprus do not need your misserable input taken from Turkish propaganda media.
Yiannis
Anyone not agreeing with you must be talking out their anal
orifice – explain to me why my botty burps are so much more
credible than anything that comes out of your mouth. No Yiannis
you do not speak for the people of Cyprus just for your bitter
twisted self.
When I want b.s. I’ll get a blow up version of you.
Why do cheapskates keep regurgitating the same rubbish – guess
who said that – go on test your one brain cell he credits you
with.
The King of Regurgitation
the one (thank God)
the only
Lets hear it for……………………….Yawnnis
cue applause
Paulene ,
Read something constructive , follow the link and stop talking rubbish as you normally do.
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus/32-million-health-care-turkish-cypriots/20100224
As for your comment , ” anyone not agreeing with myslef” again indicative of how narrow one sided minded you are .
Found any evidence yet of T/Cs killed SIX YEARS BEFORE THE INVASION.
You bloody well keep on about the imminent annihilation of the T/Cs you senile old fool , now get some evidence woman or stop spewing crap .
This is what rubbish you posted ” TA had not
found it necessary to intervene to ensure the survival of the
Turkish Cypriot race.”
Poppycock !
Another ….single brain cell !!
Pollie my dear poor wretched woman , now that you have realized what a plonker you had been in buying stolen property perhaps you would wither up and remain silent when ….I talk !
VH .Wrote : galvanize – to stimulate into action
confiscate – to seize (property) by authority
Same thing . . really? ”
OK VH , I stick a gun to your head , you are then galvanized into handing over your dosh , which I then confiscate !!
Clear enough for you ?
My dear deluded Yiannis
I will shut up when you do – deal?? Fat chance.
I know your attention span is that of a gnat but I’ll
try again – Polly does not have property in the north in
her name, Polly will never have property in the north in her
name.
Yiannis will be nice to everyone. Yiannis is not a male
chauvenist, ageist, racist oink. Yeh well I can dream!!!
YS,
If you stick a gun to my head then it doesn’t matter whether you galvanise, encourage, cuddle or entertain me – you will get what you want. And if I hand over my dosh then you can’t sieze it by authority. So how does this go anyway towards explaining your contradictions?
I strongly recommend (for the sake of your fellow Cypriots) that you stop digging and put the shovel down.
Precisely !! This how the T/A …confiscated title deeds !!
You are all blind to realities. Here you are in a part of the world that no nation recognizes , you have joined forces with the occupying T/A and have turned your selves into extremists G/C haters.This from a bunch of English , lets not forget our Australian friend , senile old codgers !!
Have a look at this link maybe something will penetrate your brain membrane !!
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus/32-million-health-care-turkish-cypriots/20100224
YS,
Your attempts at reasoned debate are frankly embarassing. And it’s quite apparent who the extremist is around here.
But hey, the link was really informative – thanks.
Look Vince – Yiannis went to bed a dreamt it, so it must be true .
I’ll bet if you ask him, he knows who shot JR too.
You cannot educate pork – just eat it
Malcolm
I have just read on your post 4611 that a TC has bought Jerrys
house in the North. Why am I not reading vitriol against this
person from our GC friends after all as a TC he must be more aware
he is buying ‘stolen’ property than any ex pat – it is after all
his personal history. Cant be seen to show their true colours
by any chance? Double standard, racist bigots etc etc.
Jerry – I am truly sorry and I hope you intend to take action
to regain your dads house.
Yiannis, you beauty! You finally got something right!
“This is what rubbish you posted ” TA had not
found it necessary to intervene to ensure the survival of the
Turkish Cypriot race.”
Poppycock !”
Spot on, mate! It is poppycock! Clearly, the reason the TA intervened was exactly that…to ensure the survival of the Turkish Cypriot race.
By the way, I have another word for your vocabulary list (the one you should be working on to ensure you have some sort of grasp of the language): EUPHEMISM
Def.: “misserable input taken from Turkish propaganda media”…a statement with which you don’t agree
“well known and respected T/C journalist”…a statement by someone with whom you agree
Yiannis, your intellect is not now so much condemned as extinct.
Polly the person occupying my house is almost certainly a British TC. The house has been visited three times in recent years, it is always unoccupied and judging by the weeds in the driveway and the dead plants it is a holiday home not a family home.It was “sold” for about £150,000 a few years ago after it had been improved(thanks to the Annan plan). In my view the occupier is not a refugee but a carpetbagger and if I can I will take action against him, I intend to find out more about him. I have thanked Ian for visiting and sending me the recent photos, I learned nothing new from them but they have confirmed my view of the occupant.
Vince , which part of my post did you find embarrassing , was it perhaps the fact that I stated the obvious !!
Take a look at the SENILE FOOLS CY 44 forum and you can see plenty of examples of cheapskates spewing hatred against the G/Cs , its no wonder that all G.Cs find you loathsome !
As for the lot of you being ex pats , what a farce !! I presume all the fugitives from British justice are also ex pats !!!
I have posted twice on NCFP in the last 24 hours. They have not been displayed. WHY?
Yiannis
Now why dont you realise it is an honour to be ex communicated
from Cyprus 44. They have every right to run their forum however
they like. It is more like a magazine than anything else and it suits them. It should give you some idea of how tolerant NCFP
is, you are still allowed to spill your bile here, the worst thing
that happens is that we get to choose whether to read your posts when you go over then top, which is 99% of the time.
By the way the definition of a expatriot is is a person living
or working abroad – its not a badge of honour, merely a description
of how you are living, so your assuming we have no right to call ourselves expats is a nonsense like most of everything else you post. For a grown man you can be pretty childish.
This was Mr Denktash’s view on the situation.
ON THE IMMOVABLE PROPERTY TRANSACTIONS IN THE TURKISH REPUBLIC OF NORTHERN CYPRUS
-The Greek Cypriot Administration’s enmity has once again surfaced on immovable property issues in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Attempts so divulged in legal arguments, in reality, are nothing but yet other violations of the freedom of people to deal with their properties.
-At this juncture, a brief overview of the history seems appropriate. The 1960 partnership Republic of Cyprus, based on the 1959/1960 International Treaties, was a compromise reached along the lines of a bi-communal partnership State, which regulated and carefully guarded the legal and political positions and interests of the two constituents, Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots. The division of power was such that the State could not be ruled by one community to the exclusion of the other. Both Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots had to participate as partners in all decision-making and in the administration of the State.
-Within three years of the conclusion of the partnership, the Greek Cypriots initiated the demise of the bi-communal partnership Republic, at first with the deliberate course of subverting the Basic unamendable Articles of the now defunct Constitution. This led to a series of events, including eventual denial of each and every right given to the Turkish Cypriots.
-With the implementation of the Akritas Plan towards the eventual aim of uniting the island with Greece, the Turkish Cypriots were excluded from the organs of the Republic by force, forced out of their offices and homes to dispersed territories which comprised about 3% of the island, and massacred by hundreds. In 1974, after exhausting all the necessary remedies, including consultation with the UK which refused intervention, Turkey has used her legal right under Article IV of the Treaty of Guarantee, in the wake of a Greek-sponsored coup d’etat, which aimed at Enosis.
-The disappointment caused by the continuing Greek Cypriot intransigence in the then inter-communal talks, the desire to end the uncertain political status of Turkish Cypriots and the necessity to take a legitimate step for clearly defining the status of the Turkish Cypriots culminated in the declaration of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (hereinafter TRNC) on 15 November 1983. The TRNC was proclaimed by the unanimous vote of the Legislative Assembly of the Turkish Federated State of Cyprus, a democratic representative institution of the Turkish people of Cyprus. Its Constitution won the support of 70.18% in the referendum. It is a secular Republic based on principles of democracy, social justice, and the supremacy of the rule of law.
-TRNC has been accorded de jure recognition by Turkey. Although it does not enjoy universal de jure recognition, there is a universally acknowledged de facto State in North Cyprus. The effectual and independent nature of this administration enjoys general acceptance. Various court decisions in the United Kingdom also acknowledge this reality (Hesperides Hotels Ltd and Another v Aegean Turkish Holidays Ltd and Another (1977) 3 Weekly Law Reports 656 (Court of Appeal) and Polly Peck International Plc v Asil Nadir and Others (1992) 2 All England Reports 238 (Court of Appeal)). In the Hesperides Hotel Ltd and Another case, Lord Denning in the Court of Appeal said that “(t)here is an effective administration in Northern Cyprus which has made laws governing the day-to-day lives of the people.”
-Moreover, in a decision of the European Court of Human Rights, Cyprus v Turkey, the Court has also recognized that there is a de facto authority in the TRNC and by referring to the Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice in the Nambia case (1971 ICJ Reports), accepted that international law recognizes the legitimacy of certain legal arrangements and transactions. Paragraph 96 of the Cyprus v Turkey case stated:
“Life goes on in the territory concerned for its inhabitants. That life must be made tolerable and be protected by the de facto authorities, including their courts; and, in the very interest of the inhabitants, the acts of these authorities related thereto cannot be simply ignored by third States or by institutions, especially courts, including this one. To hold otherwise would amount to stripping the inhabitants of the territory of all their rights whenever they are discussed in an international context, which would amount to depriving them even of the minimum standard of rights to which they are entitled.”
-The European Commission of Human Rights has also attributed legal validity and effect to the legislation of the TRNC when, in the Chrysostomos case (1993), it held that “the arrest of the applicants in Cyprus, by police officers acting under Chapter 155, Section 14 of the Criminal Procedure Law took place “in accordance with a procedure prescribed by law as required by Article 5 para. 1 of the Convention.” (emphasis added)
-In 1975, there has been an agreement between the two sides for the exchange of populations which had been fully implemented under the auspices of the United Nations Forces in Cyprus (UNFICYP), where the Turkish Cypriots left their properties and moved to the North and the Greek Cypriots to the South. The United Nations thereby confirmed the existence of two public orders, acknowledged bi-zonality, and the restrictions on the freedom of movement, freedom of settlement and the right to property. The UN-controlled buffer-zone which extends in between the demarcation lines of two sides, the status and integrity of which must be respected, is one of these factors forming the basis of bi-zonality.
-The Voluntary Exchange of Populations Agreement was followed by High Level Agreements in 1977 and 1979 where the framework for a solution was agreed upon once again based on the principle of bi-zonality. The Charter of Economic Rights and Duties of States of 1974 also confirms that expropriation would take place by taking into account the domestic law of the nationalizing State and by its tribunals.
-The Greek Cypriots simply ignored all these agreements and documents. The Greek Cypriot Administration has encouraged and itself resorted to legal means to solve this highly political issue which is indisputably one of the core issues in the Cyprus dispute. It is controversial to note, however, that the Greek Cypriot Administration fails to apply its own rationale when its officials publicly state that the property rights of Turkish Cypriots will be honored after a political settlement.
-Some courts have declined to deal with such cases and successfully avoided being dragged into a political dispute. Despite the Greek Cypriot claim to the contrary, a U.S. court especially succeeded in leaving the resolution of this issue to the two parties on the basis of a negotiated political solution. In Takey Crist, et al. v Republic of Turkey case (C.A. 93-2605 (RCL)), the U.S. District Court Judge Royce Lamberth prevented further Greek Cypriot harassment in property issues and found that the Court lacked jurisdiction under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act. Judge Labmerth stated, in part, that:
“Plaintiffs are merely stacking one hypothetical upon another and with
each additional hypothetical, the probability that their underlying
contention has merit decreases exponentially. It is evident from
consideration of these assertions that plaintiffs’ claim of jurisdiction
is groundless and strung together with a bare thread of speculation
and the slimmest of hopes that jurisdictional discovery would unearth
some fact to support their otherwise unsubstantiated allegations.”
-It is important to note that the U.S. District Court, in the proceedings on remand from the U.S. Court of Appeals, held so despite the Greek Cypriot claims that expropriation exception 1605(a)(3) of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act of 1976, 28 U.S.C. 1330 should be applicable to the alleged facts. This exception grants jurisdiction to the U.S. Courts if rights in property are taken in violation of international law.
-It is apparent that the U.S. Courts do not view the taking of the immovable property by the TRNC Authorities as a violation of international law. This decision sets precedent for the similar immovable property issues. Moreover, the U.S. District Court and Court of Appeals made it clear that the property issues should be solved through negotiations.
-The Greek Cypriot Administration and individual Greek Cypriots have also applied to the Council of Europe institutions, claiming that they were not bound by the High Level Agreements, and the other agreed upon principles. These institutions were not as sensitive to the political nature of the problem as the U.S. Courts. The decision of Cyprus v Turkey, exploited by the Greek Cypriot Administration in its latest attempt to violate rights of owners of property in the TRNC, prevents the settlement of one of the core issues to the Cyprus question, hence undermining all efforts to reach a negotiated bi-zonal political solution. This zero-sum approach is making a mutually acceptable negotiated settlement impossible. While the resolution of the property issue could pave the way for a cooperative relationship based on mutual respect and trust, the present Greek Cypriot approach as such reveals their real intentions which is not one of cooperation but confrontation and continued violation of previous agreements.
-The Turkish Cypriot Authorities took into account the above-mentioned means and realities in dealing with the property issue in the TRNC, which could also be justified in international law. The Turkish Cypriot Government accordingly introduced the Housing, Allocation of Land and Property of Equal Value Law in 1977 which provided for the valuation of Turkish Cypriot properties left in the South, in exchange of which Turkish Cypriot property owners received title deeds for equivalent Greek Cypriot properties left in the North. The legislation in the TRNC also allows Greek Cypriots who previously owned immovable property in the North are also invited to claim compensation and/or exchange their properties with Turkish Cypriot immovable properties in the South.
-Today, people dealing with immovable property in the TRNC act according to previously agreed principles on property and international law, granting title titles to the purchasers of land in the TRNC. To prevent chaos, any settlement between the two sides has to take into account these realities and acts.
Hi Jerry, the internet had been down for 24hrs and you somehow got into the moderation queue. Sorry about that
YS, I hope you can see that Jerry is showing he is not discriminatory and is intending pursuing the trespasser on his property even though s/he is a TC. Mind you, perhaps s/he is a Cypriot who decided to live in the UK and work and return when they retired. They might even have property in the south currently occupied by GC refugees or even illegally taken by the RoC for a state project. Perhaps Jerry will push the TC into doing the same for that property in the south as Jerry is going to do to them? They might even live just down the road from Jerry. I believe this trespass judgement is going to cause chaos soon.
How will you go about this Jerry?
Malcolm, I know more about the occupant than I am prepared to reveal on this board. There are, however, a few more bits of the jigsaw to put in place before I can take action. The original occupants were quite old (I have a photo of them taken in 1990). I’m sure they were genuinely re-homed. The person who bought the place for £150,000 must have been living elsewhere for 30 years, I would hardly call him a refugee – just an opportunist who wanted a cheap holiday home. Incidentally, I know the person who owns all of the surrounding land, much of which has been built on. He’s not very happy.
Ian , for the last time I will ask this , answer or put a sock in it !!
HOW MANY T/CS WERE KILLED S I X Y E A R S BEFORE TURKEY INVADED .
Find the answer fool then come back and challenge me , if you cant do so I suggest you shut it.
Desrespectfully
Yiannis.
Malcolm , there is a vast difference between a T/C tresspassing on G/C land and Brits who were not forced by circumstances to abandon their homes and congregate in the north .
Think about it .
WALLET AND GROMIT
are you trying to make point by copy pasting , if so what is your point.
Sorry Yiannis Milltiredies, we’ve been here before…I can’t be bothered.
I think you’ve finally lost it.
As all can witness , Ian has run out of steam !!
So the massacre that ….was taking place which precipidated the Turkish invasion and caused the death of more than FIVE THOUSAND CYPRIOTS , THOUSANDS DISPLACED AND HUNDREDS MISSING , Was not in fact taking place at all , Oh dear , Turkey had to exonarate her self from any blame , so the myth was created , T/Cs were being wiped out …infact SIX YEARS PRIOR TO THE VICIOUS INVASION OF CYPRUS NONE WERE EXTERMINATED !!
Here is my request , politely put to Ian the Plonker !!
Ian , for the last time I will ask this , answer or put a sock in it !!
HOW MANY T/CS WERE KILLED S I X Y E A R S BEFORE TURKEY INVADED .
Find the answer fool then come back and challenge me , if you cant do so I suggest you shut it.
Desrespectfully
Yiannis.
Ian keeps hiding me away !!! I wonder why !
As all can witness , Ian has run out of steam !!
So the massacre that ….was taking place which precipidated the Turkish invasion and caused the death of more than FIVE THOUSAND CYPRIOTS , THOUSANDS DISPLACED AND HUNDREDS MISSING , Was not in fact taking place at all , Oh dear , Turkey had to exonarate her self from any blame , so the myth was created , T/Cs were being wiped out …infact SIX YEARS PRIOR TO THE VICIOUS INVASION OF CYPRUS NONE WERE EXTERMINATED !!
Here is my request , politely put to Ian the Plonker !!
Ian , for the last time I will ask this , answer or put a sock in it !!
HOW MANY T/CS WERE KILLED S I X Y E A R S BEFORE TURKEY INVADED .
Find the answer fool then come back and challenge me , if you cant do so I suggest you shut it.
Desrespectfully
Yiannis.
Wallet & Gromit
the mans views your are publishing have a few flows of his own.
namely he was head of a state who’s minister shot and killed an unarmed man. while this was going on mr denktash was taking pictures of the event.
the minister is a wanted man by interpol.
we are talking about people who are litle better than common criminals.
making refference to the case of polypek vs asil nadir is enough for anyone with half a brain to understand what this man represents.
it is truly sad to see people defend people like denktsh on this site.
it is an insult to humanity to consider such individuals worth quoting afer.
Masta
Now maybe the man Wallet and Gromit refers to has flaws.
Is the post factual – that is the important question. I
believe it is. Picking out the people you do not like
from the post is not really constructive. There are people
on both sides of the conflict who would not stand up to close
scrutiny but matters of public record are irrefutable.
Good post Wallet and Gromit
Jerry
I wish you success.
The support from your fellow GC posters here is deafening.
Can you imagine what it would have been if you had discovered
a couple of old infirm British ex pats had bought your house?
Now you can understand first hand what racism they portray.
The furthest thing from any ex pats mind was to defraud you or
any Cypriot of their belongings. The estate agents, legal
profession and the government gave their whole hearted approval,
so the ex pat thought it was legally and morally correct. The
idea that there are thousands of ex pats who deliberately set out
to steal your properties is as ridiculous as it is untrue. Why
at the end of their lives would anyone walk knowingly into a situation like this.
Did you know that part of the screening process for permission to
purchase in the TRNC is a Scotland Yard Character Reference, do
you think they are all like Mr. Robb – certainly not.
I do not believe that an Interpol arrest warrant exists for Mr Denktash, wishful thinking on your part.
He has travelled to many countries and still does, if he was a “wanted” man please explain how he went the the UN headquarters in the USA and also Burgenstock in Switzerland.
The post is valid, you can google the names of those involved in the cases and they will appear as described.
Just because some people do not like things it desn’t make them untrue.
ME, I thank you for taking the time to respond and I apologize for my absence. I know you have been having rain in that part of the world and we have been having a lot of snow.
I think you have a reasoned approach but–mind you this is from the perspective of a person not a party to the problems–I think there is going to have to be some recognition to get the talks off the ground.
I concur with part of what was put in W&G’s post. “….Moreover, the U.S. District Court and Court of Appeals made it clear that the property issues should be solved through negotiations.”
I my interactions with GC, there is an amazing faith that Turkey “will do the right thing.” It is a theme that recurs over and over and yet I just do not see it for many reasons as I stated before. And yet this is the anchor that everything GC’s put forward is based upon. I would forget about Turkey at this point. If your hope is in Turkey then the stalemate will be much much longer.
To get this thing solved the GC and TC are going to have to talk to each other…and that is going to have to at some level recognize the TRNC as an entity. And that too will have to be a compromise as it will have to be more than the GC have put forward to date. Then there will be negotiations. If they all go one way or the other then nothing will come of these. In a negotiated settlement there is compromise.
We have been going 36 years and to date TC’s have moved about 10% and GC’s about 10%. Both still have another 40% to go. We may have been a bit further before A vs. O but now both sides are digging in.
Again, in my opinion, this thing has to be solved without Turkey in the mix. Both sides have to talk to each other and not past each other.
Good point Mabel. Of course there is no arrest warrant out for
Mr. Denktash, either that or like our deeds it is not worth the
paper it is written on (joke)
Rumour has it that Denktash has a RoC passport , we know that members of his family were recently exposed as holders of Cypriot IDs and passports , we also know that he is one of the richest men in Cyprus , one wonders how he achieved this , some say he had the lion’s share of the freebies !!
Yiannis
Isnt that the norm for ALL politicians. Shock horror!!
Polly, the Brit carpetbaggers did not go out to deliberately defraud but surely they should have asked themselves a few searching questions such as “how did the vendor acquire this land?” “why is north Cyprus home to 40,000 troops?” “why are there no direct flights? “why are properties half the price of those in the ROC?” “what does the internationally recognised government of Cyprus say about “Exchange” land?”
I think they were blinded by ignorance, the desire for a bargain and the persuasive views of those ex-pats already living there. Yiannis expresses himself a litle more forcefully than myself but I don’t disagree with his view. You only have to spend a few minutes on CY44 to see how much the carpetbaggers despise the Greek Cypriots. Armed with their copies of “The Genocide Files” they believe that the GCs are entirely to blame for the Cyprus problem, they say this to justify their “purchase” in the north. And of course being a minority the TCs must be the victims – it’s obvious isn’t it?!!
A few things you may like to know about Denktash; he was a prosecutor for the colonial power, he was responsible for sending young GCs to the gallows for carrying arms (not for using them). He was against the Annan Plan. The UN recognised that it was his intransigence that blocked the peace process pre- Talat. He became very wealthy on “Greek Loot” post 1974. He was kicked out of the “trnc” government, in effect, by Turkey.
The Cyprus problem needs to be seen in the context of the Greek/Turkish conflict over centuries in the region and not just on the island. The selfish interests of some of the Western powers must also bear a share of the blame – as should their citizen carpetbaggers.
Jerry
Nothing I say will change your mind, and in truth why should it?
I just cannot get my head round the idea that property in the north
is the same value as the south, not because of the TA but because
there is no infrastructure as such, no amenities, no theatres,
no leisure facilities as such. To think that the prices should be the same as the south is unrealistic. That said perhaps the ex pats only heard what they wanted to hear it doesnt make them
bad. The agents up here market very well and very convincingly.
I am still waiting to read someone from the south definitively condemn the TCs
who sold the property – it is too convenient to blame the easy target, make excuses for those you do not wish to alienate and in your
case to hear someone condemn the TC that bought your property.
The only people who appear to care abpout your plight are from the
north.
Jerry, you and I have a vested interest in either side of the argument and to be quite honest name calling and blame is counter productive. If I was to want to be insulting I would say that individual GCs in the period 1960-1974 were like Germans in the period 1928-1945. In both cases a war left them with a loss of part of their country; GCs to “Turks” and Germans to “Czechs.” Germans blame the Nazis for 1945 and GCs blame “extremists” for 1974. Both look back to conflicts throughout history to justify their actions and both turned their backs on discriminatory governments, preferring to ignore injustices.
I believe it is time for people like myself to stop apologising or trying to explain to people like you and to tell you quite bluntly that whatever our reasons for buying property in the north we will all be dealt with by the law and if GCs will not forgive us our trespasses then we will not forgive them theirs. You don’t care about our reasons for occupying GC property and quite honestly we don’t care about the reasons that GCs are occupying TC property. The law is non-discriminatory and has declared that in both cases trespass is involved.
The emotional and discriminatory stance that some GCs are taking is abusive and in any civilised country is illegal. The reason it is illegal is because of the damage it can cause to a person’s physical and mental health. Pauline touched on this in her article. Mr Apostilides followed the law and did not at any time become abusive towards the Orams as he and his lawyer knew the implications of doing so. I have not heard a single word from GCs about the law breaking GCs on TC land. You are not interested in law except when it suits you.
We don’t need a biased history lesson, the sort that GC schools have been peddling for a century, we need to know what shape Cyprus is going to take in the future and if GCs will be part of some sort of united Cyprus. I don’t think they will. We also need to know if we are going to be treated in the same way as GC trespassers in the south or whether we are going to be victimised by GCs out for revenge.
Hi Jerry,
I’m afraid I can’t get my head around these GC attitudes either. Why it should be the case that I and many others like me have become “the scum of the earth” (direct quotes from people such as Yiannis, Kyri, Get Real et al) for buying properties we could afford in lovely places with lovely people, after consultation with professionals in law, real estate and government, and Turkish Cypriots are now referred to in the friendliest of terms. Apostolides is on record as saying he didn’t want to sue any Turkish Cypriots (on 90% of his land), only the thieving Orams (on 10% of it).
It is with some curiosity I now note that all GCs refer to TCs in very sympathetic tones, and are very careful to declare that the real enemy is now the thieving ex-pat who has stolen his home or land. The original TCs who were the target of the Enosis campaign and the Akritas Plan appear to have disappeared.
Jerry, I can state with some certainty that the northern ex-pats in general certainly do not despise the GCs in general. I think you’ll find that any ire or derision you see on Cyprus44 is aimed at those GCs and their sympathisers who attack them so virulently on the other Cyprus forum. The language is often quite disgusting, and the level of intelligence is clearly not high.
A major stumbling block, as I see it, is that while most of us do not maintain the GCs were entirely to blame, that some attaches to the TCs and Turkey, most GCs now appear to be in total denial. Your last paragraph, for example, generalises about a wider context in space and time, and complains again about western powers and their “carpetbaggers”. Nowhere do I see any concession from you that the GCs had any hand in the reason for the conflict.
The smaller minds like Kyri and Yiannis actually talk of the “heroes” of EOKA and their “honourable” campaign, claiming all the evil was perpetrated by EOKA B!
Jerry, can I ask you this: Were you and/or your father members of EOKA, or EOKA B? Did either of you fight in the campaign against the TCs? I don’t in any way intend to belittle you or disrespect you whatever your answer, but I also believe in being straight up and open when debating a controversial and sensitive issue such as this.
ok,
Lets put something down to order.
All the expats (if you are than on this forum) feel that there was some kind of monsterous attitude by GCs towards TCs. You use this to justify all the horrific things you say.
The fact is that 99% of GC and TC had nothing against eachother. You can ask TC to that end. I am sure if you find any reasonable TC will testify to this. Any GC will testify to the same.
That is not to say we did not have crazed people who commited horrible acts against innocent TCs (this was just in the years 63-4). We certainly did not do enough to stop them and we are guilty of that. These were acts by people that wanted to harm the RoC government and promote their own ideas.
The Akritas plan, for those who have read it, is indeed a dark part of our past. It was NEVER enforced or enacted to any substantial degree. It was put aside right after the Junta came to power in greece.
But what you are attempting to do, my friends, is pass a camel through a needle hole as a saying goes in greek.
You seek to exploid these horrible, isolated facts, to justify your own view which support something that is indefencible (namely the invesion and the occupation). Something that should it have happened in our days would prompt the entire world asking for the culprits to be procecuted for crimes against humanity.
You are wasting you breath and you are doing yourselves no favours in posting in the way that you do. No reasonable personal who know the history of this islands would agree with you.
The only reason why you feel you are unjustly persecuted is perhaps contrary to the rest of the planet, you, and the Turks are the only ones who share views.
An illegal state largely ruled by blood-thrirsty thugs is who you have joined.
Just look to Turkey and look at what ertogan is going. It’s time you give it up.
ME, I stopped reading when you wrote “All the expats”
how convinient for you
Can’t believe the Greek mentality, yesterday Greek Deputy Prime Minister Theodoros Pangalos accused Germany of failing to compensate Greece for Nazi occupation during World War II.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8536862.stm
It’s like a little kid who broke something, “it’s not my fault – he did it!”
Polly, if, as you say, property is cheaper in the north because of poor infrastructure how do you explain the fact that pre 1974 TC property sells for a premium, twice the price.
Cypriots had to live somewhere post 1974, it was accepted that they would use each other’s property pending a settlement. Suing the people you are trying to come to an agreement with does not make much sense. Greek Cypriots see any foreigner (be he a Turkish soldier, a settler or ex-pat) who “buys”/occupies his land in the north as interfering in a matter that is none of their business. The presence of any non-Cypriot in the “trnc” further complicates an already difficult problem – we resent it. You are the easy target, your presence is, in our view, counterproductive – what do you expect us to do – go to war with Turkey, sue a settler?
Malcolm, I know why you bought in the north, no need to apologise – you were mugged. I just do not understand how an educated person could fall into such a trap. I posed the questions in my earlier post. I think what we really resent is did you ever stop to think” I wonder what happened to the poor bastard who was chased off here at the point of a gun?” Surely you knew the “trnc” was an unrecognised “State” created by armed force.
As to “You don’t care about our reasons for occupying GC property and quite honestly we don’t care about the reasons that GCs are occupying TC property” You are a bit mixed up here Malcolm, the GCs were/are occupying TC property in Cyprus, their homeland, out of necessity, they have not traded it. If you liked Cyprus so much you could have bought in the ROC or genuine TC property in the north.
You mention illegal discriminatory abuse. Malcolm the very “State” you live in is illegal and as for discrimination, did you know that the “constitution” of that “State” prevents Greek Cypriots from living there. As for my interest in the law, I agree with what Candounas said after the Orams verdict. He hoped that it would lead the way to all Cypriots being able to claim what was rightfully theirs. I believe in the legal process, that’s why I attended the Court.
Ignore the history Malcolm if it suits you, sweep it under the carpet, pretend it did not happen and has nothing to do with where we are today. Where would you like the “Cyprus Story” to begin, in 200? when YOU arrived on the island? You will not be treated in the same way as the GC trespassers in the ROC because they are not involved in the sale and purchase of stolen land, the real owners can legally reclaim what is theirs. The ROC cannot ignore the pressure from the EU and its Court to return occupied TC land.
Ian, I have never referred to you as scum, I’m not responsible for the words of others but I imagine they are motivated by what they see on CY44. Turkey and the “trnc” are despised by the GCs, not most of the people. Despite what you may have heard in the old days they got on very well with each other. Nationalism, politics, colonialism and strategic importance were responsible for the division. I have, in previous engagements with you, said that both sides are equally to blame. In so far as the GCs are four times more numerous than TCs I suppose you could say they are four times to blame but then you have to address the same question to Turkey with a population of 70 million.
As to who my father fought. The only people he pointed a gun at were the Japanese (RAF Regiment WW2) and yet the very Empire he fought to defend watched as our NATO ally stole his house in Cyprus. As for EOKA, my grandmother was Grivas’s first cousin so I am unfortunately related to the man. I believe that the EOKA campaign was misguided and, in hindsight, unnecessary. That is not to say that what they wanted was wrong but Cypriots had been offered home rule and turned it down, in time independence (perhaps with the SBAs) would have been achieved without bloodshed. Many of the EOKA fighters were brave men but some were simply murdering thugs. EOKA B were a bunch of murdering fascists, I have met the type, you cannot reason with them – a bit like TMT, founded by Rauf Denktash.
Jerry, “the GCs were/are occupying TC property in Cyprus, their homeland, out of necessity” so I guess it’s alright. Perhaps we’ll get the EU to change the law to let anybody who “out of necessity” needs to occupy someone else’s land just do that. Oh I forgot, you only want that for the people that you want it for. You just love lawbreaking when it suits you.
Hey Masta,
If it was only 1% of GCs who had this terrible attitude to TCs, that 1% must have been Black Mak and three of his mates…
Nice answer, Jerry. It’s very magnanimous of you to concede that both sides were equally to blame, but is it really correct? We’ve had Turkish Cypriots who lived there at the time telling us of many of the discriminatory practices the GC government got up to, never mind the violence. I’m not sure that “they got on very well with each other” is such an accurate portrayal of the way things were…
I thought better of you than that Malcolm. Surely you can see that there is/was a quid pro quo – The GCs occupied the TCs property and the TCs occupied the GCs property pending a settlement. Both sides accepted that the law could be “broken”. Outsiders, from the Greek Cypriot point of view, were not included.
Jerry
At least you are an honest man. You admit the expats are an easy target which is why some GCs vent their spleen here at them. As a female some have tried very hard to intimidate me off the board, but to no avail. I am sure more females would post if it wasnt
for the disgusting, bad mannered responses.
With regard to pre 74 Turkish title, ex pats are no longer able
to purchase it, but the premium you put on it is a myth, yes it was
a little more expensive but I am sure if it was where an expat wanted to live, the extra would not have been a deterrant.
Malcolm you are right. Buying in the north was a transaction
undertaken in good faith and needs no apology or justification.
Maybe TCs like GCs did initially need somewhere to live which
is why GCs are so magnanimous about it. It still does not explain
why no-one condemns the sale of land they dont (allegedly) own to
primarily the ex patsys – money money money, always money.
Am I suspicious of the GCs overtures to the TCs. You betcha.
Jerry, when Mr A brought in the EU to settle the Cyprus property problem a precedent was finally set which went beyond all the little local remedies. “Both sides accepted” no longer carries legal weight. On the TC side the Nazire Ahmet Adnan Sofi case came to the same decision that TCs can demand the return of their land too. The problem is now that ALL TCs can claim their land and have to be given it unless compensation is more attractive but GCs can never get their properties back.
Mr A has created an impression in the media that GCs are vindictive and that instead of accepting compensation they would rather see people (specifically a patient photogenic Brit couple) suffer whereas TC Sofi was reasonable and decided to accept compensation instead. You too Jerry, have exactly the same attitude towards your TC trespasser, no mention of accepting compensation, it’s the party line for you, despite you not have a chance in a million of getting your property back. The impression is GC= cruelty and TC=compassion, the same attitude most GCs display on NCFP.
You just don’t get it do you. Your presence on the island, in my view, effectively endorses what Turkey did to the Greek Cypriots. Occupying our property in effect is saying to us “we have no problem with the fact that one third of your population was ethnically cleansed from here and we are happy to take your place”
That’s how most GCs see what you have done and you wonder why they get mad! Some of you go on to justify your presence by saying that we started it and got what we deserved. How concerned were you about the plight of the Cypriots before you lived there? How much did you know about the Cyprus problem before you moved in?
Malcolm, how dare you guess at what I intend to do about my house in Bogazi. Have I said I want the occupant out, I certainly don’t want it demolished, it’s my house. I have no desire to live in the Turkish State. Go figure it out!
Jerry, I dare because you dare to write “in my view the occupier is not a refugee but a carpetbagger and if I can I will take action against him.” What do GCs do to carpetbaggers?
No, Jerry it’s you that don’t get it. We did not take your place the Turks did and they gave it to TCs who sold it to us. I bought a half acre field, current price in the UK about £5,000. I’d be happy to compensate the owner to that sum. They are never going to get their property so that seems fair. However, the GC attitude seems to be pure revenge. Where on this planet would a person be allowed to create so much suffering for say, a stolen £5000 car which could never be used by the original owner. Natural justice would say, because the car cannot be returned, compensate the owner and the receiver of the stolen car keeps it. Perhaps an equivalent field in the south might even be a better compensation? Do you get it? You will not be getting your property back, not because of me, but because of Turks.
Masta
The saying concerning camels and needles is biblical.
“The saying concerning camels and needles is biblical.”
And very apt as the eye of a needle is a gateway into a walled city which is big enough for unburdened people to enter through but not for a camel with baggage. It’s allegorical in that it is saying that unless you get rid of your baggage you aren’t going to enter the kingdom of heaven, or your property in north Cyprus if you want to look at it like that
Jerry
Are the expats in the south offensive to the TCs in the north.
Does their presence there imply condoning what the GCs did
to the TCs. Dont be ridiculous. It was in a time when the
expats were hippies and flowerpower was in vogue. Most didnt know
or care where Cyprus was then.
You need a scapegoat, you pretend to love your TC brethren,
what a crock. Beware Greek(cypriots) bearing gifts.
We got over two world wars against the Germans – we all forgave
each other, why cant you. It is out and out racism to imply
the presence of EU citizens (Brits) is unacceptable to you.
You havent progressed very far have you?
Whilst I am at it give us our fish and chip shops back. JOKE
Malcolm, “Taking action against him” does not specify my intentions and you must know that some claims have been met by compensation – so please don’t jump the gun.
I know very well who is responsible for our losses in the north but I repeat what I said previously, your presence on our property effectively endorses the invasion and ethic cleansing of the north – can’t you see that? And no, it won’t be you that stops GCs from getting their property back but you have certainly compounded an already difficult problem. As for GC revenge, tell that to the 50,000 inhabitants of Varosha who Turkey and the regime in the north have kept from their homes for no other reason than revenge.
How do you know that the owner of the land your house is built on will not accept compensation, have you asked him or are you jumping the gun yet again?
Jerry, taking action against a carpetbagger does not mean accept compensation so don’t try to pull the wool over my eyes.
You said “your presence” as opposed to a person’s presence on GC property endorses the invasion. Do you mean all those in the north endorse the invasion, eg GC tourists and TCs who most definitely endorse the invasion? Or perhaps you mean just us Brits? Did you come to this idea on your own or were you brainwashed? Lets take this bizarre idea a bit further. The EU is negotiating with Turkey for entry into the EU and at some point may decide that there is nothing that Turkey can do to get Cypriots to settle the Cyprob and therefore it should not be a prerequisite to entry. The EU trades with Turkey. Will the entire EU then be endorsing the invasion? Apparently Cyprus supports Turkey’s entry into the EU – is that endorsing the invasion? Cyprus is in the EU and therefore just by being part of it will they be endorsing the invasion? Carl Popper talks about scientists being so attached to their theories that they count anything that contradicts the theory as being an anomaly. I think that TCs, GC tourists and the EU are anomalies that you will now attempt to disregard so that your “the sun revolves round the earth” theory remains intact.
Polly, of course the ex pats in the ROC aren’t offensive to the TCs, they are not living on their land and why would they complain about the Brits presence in the south when they, the TCs, acquired so much from the GCs. To put in in CY44 terms; the TCs (Turkey actually) won the war, why would they complain?
Racism? What about the racism of the north where GCs are not allowed to live. I don’t pretend to love TCs, I’ve employed them and worked with them, I don’t have a problem with them. I have a problem with Turkey and the facist “State” it created in the north. There are three regular TC contributors to Cyprus Forum who feel the same way most GCs do about what has happened in the north and all three of them live abroad – they know who is just as responsible for their plight as the Greek Cypriots. You people come to Cyprus, talk to a few TCs and think you know all about the Cyprus Problem – you know nothing.
Jerry wrote, “You people come to Cyprus, talk to a few TCs and think you know all about the Cyprus Problem – you know nothing.”
Us people can’t help it boss, we were just born stupid. We don’t have your Hellenic genes I suppose.
Malcolm, I don’t care about the consequences of others against carpetbaggers, I know what I want and you are wrong to prejudge my intentions.
I can’t make much sense of “You said “your presence” as opposed to a person’s presence on GC property endorses the invasion.”
It’s not a bizarre idea, I can only tell you how I and other GCs feel about outsiders who can now live where we used to live, no brainwashing was involved.
You can speculate all you like about “bizarre ideas”, if I could be bothered i’d make up a few of my own.
Malcolm wrote; – “Jerry wrote, “You people come to Cyprus, talk to a few TCs and think you know all about the Cyprus Problem – you know nothing.”
Us people can’t help it boss, we were just born stupid. We don’t have your Hellenic genes I suppose.”
Many a true word is spoken in jest
PS I have diluted genes, I’m half Cockney.
“your presence” suggests a particular person’s presence is to blame but you explained yourself in your next comment. You means “us people.” It is a bizarre idea.
The best thing that happened to Cyprus was the introduction of
fresh genes into the ‘gene pool’ We all know the effect of too
close breeding – we can see the result in the wierd posting from some GCs.
Jerry your implication was not just because expats bought houses in the north but their very presence there offends you, as if being there somehow makes us against you – what nonsense. Didnt you know
as EU citizens we can go where we please.
What the GCs would have preferred was to see the TCs without any
decent standard of living, without the tourists, without the expats
most definitely without the TA so that you could walk all over them
unimpeded. Nothing has changed accept now you are trying a ‘charm
offensive’, trouble is with so little practice you are not very good at it.
and I’m still waiting da da de da.
I’m still waiting for a brave GC to condemn a T.C. for selling
stolen property in the north and that doesnt mean one of the half baked, they shouldnt have sold it but ex pats caused the problem by buying it. No – I want a full admission that without the
property/land being made available the ex pat would not have been
able to buy it. The chain cannot start without the first link.
I wont hold my breath
As EU citizens Polly you also have to enter a nation legally . Get it in your thick scull , you are in a part of Cyprus that is under foreign occupation.
What about these utter rubbish , how did you arrive at that you stupid woman !
“What the GCs would have preferred was to see the TCs without any
decent standard of living, without the tourists, without the expats
most definitely without the TA so that you could walk all over them
unimpeded.”
Jerry,
“You people come to Cyprus, talk to a few TCs and think you know all about the Cyprus Problem – you know nothing.”
Believe it or not, it is possible to become quite knowledgeable about a subject by researching it in all the accepted modes, as well as by talking to people who were actually there at the time. Your declamation is as condescending as it is arrogant. It’s also flawed.
On the face of it, your family would appear to have been unlucky. You didn’t fight with EOKA or EOKA B and you did nothing wrong to any TCs. You simply lived under a GC government led by an evil man of god and allowed him to do as he decided without protest.
Would you care to advise, with honesty, exactly what you received in compensation for having to vacate your house?
Yiannis
Through Larnaca and then Metehan and no one questioned my right
to do so, as indeed I have on sooo many occasions.
IIIIIIII am am am am still still still waiting???????
I know nothing – well I do know when a request is ignored……
and ignaored……and ignored……..
Ian, most GCs did nothing wrong to TCs. As late as 1967 I remember picking olives with my Aunt and uncle in Komi Kebir whilst TCs were working a few feet away. The village was mixed until 1975/6 when the last of the GCs were orderd out. It only takes intimidation from a few thugs on either side to start the cycle of mistrust and violence, you really have to get away from the notion that the ordinary Cypriots were at each others throats all the time. There is much anecdotal evidence to show how one side protected the other when extremists appeared on the scene.
As to your last sentance, I think you must have suffered a lapse of memory: – http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/2010/02/04/orams-villa-compulsorily-purchased-by-trnc-government/
check 3918 and 3931
Jerry, I’ll certainly put my hand up for memory lapses…it’s beginning to happen more frequently than is comfortable…but nowhere in either of those two posts could I find the exact details of how your family was compensated.
Are you saying you received nothing?
Perhaps you missed this bit Ian: -
“My father, like many British GCs, did not and would not ask for help from the ROC after 1974. He already had a home in the UK and knew that thousands of Cypriots had a more urgent claim for accommodation. This is why you see varying figures of 160,000 – 200,000 GC displaced persons – quite a few were UK based.”
So, just for the record, my father received no compensation for his loss. Do the maths Ian, 160,000 displaced Greek Cypriots “exchanged” places with 45,000(?) Turkish Cypriots. We are continuously being told that the GCs want too much from the talks and won’t compromise (greedy Greeks is often said on CY44). You tell me who has the most to give, 18% of the population occupy 37% of the island. Almost one third of the displaced GCs could have returned to Varosha (its too late now the place is ruined) at no cost to Turkey, so who is being intransigent?
I also had (they have all passed away) three UK based uncles who did not ask for or receive compensation for their newly built retirement/holiday homes in Bogazi, Yialousa and Varosha. My father’s sister and her husband owned acres of land in and around Komi Kebir, they left their village to get supplies and never saw their home again and spent the rest of their lives in a two bedroomed flat in London – no compensation. I have God knows how many cousins who were studying or working in the UK who got nothing. My brother in law’s family lost a lot of land in the same area as my father’s house, he inherited his parent’s prefab in the ROC but no land.
Jerry, the Immovable Property Commission would allow for compensation, like that taken by Turkish Cypriot Nezire Sofiso in the south, so at least the unfairness on both sides is now being addressed.
Malcolm, I made enquiries with the IPC a couple of years ago. They don’t know their arse from their elbow, they sent me, a person with a GC name, an application form to BUY land in the north. After a few phone calls they sent a letter referring me to a TC lawyer in Nicosia. At the rate they get through applications it will be years before they can settle all the cases currently before them and awaiting the Court. Some of the settlements made two years ago have still not been paid. Just suppose the 50,000 GCs put in claims for an average of £50,000 each, do you honestly believe that Turkey will cough up £2,500,000,000 to pay them off, and how long would that take? Generally the compensation offers are less than the real value of the property involved. We will have to wait and see what the Court says about the IPC later in the year, they have yet to be approved as a legitimate remedy.
Admittedly, the IPC has been blamed for dragging it’s heels but under the previous government this was true of most things. I heard somewhere that Turkey has set aside £1.5bn for paying compensation and, if there is a settlement, expects to also return land to the original owners. Not sure if that’s true. The RoC’s record for settling TC claims is equally abysmal, I believe.
Jerry
Most TCs I know do not even bring up the subject of the conflict.
When I lived in the south 93 to 98, if you chose to go on a coach
trip anywhere, the guide spouted anti Turkish propaganda as part
of the tour. My GC friends were also very vocal about it. For this reason I became very anti the north. However living here
I recognise that you cannot judge a situation by listening to only
one side of the story – my eyes have been well and truly opened.
I do not need anyone’s words, I can see for myself.
I wish more GCs lived here too, I would love to see the situation
resolved but there has to be give and take and a willingness from both sides to forgive. I recognise that the more vitriolic posters
and not representative of the majority of GCs and I thank God for that.
Yiannis
Is there any reason why you cannot come and look at your
property in the north? As a Cypriot you can cross the border.
I realise if 160,000 of you came at the same time the TA would get
concerned, but surely as an individual you are allowed to come and go as you please.
Have the GCs stopped to think about what threats to sue people
who stay in the north in hotels/apartments built on alleged GC
land will do to their own tourist industry.
Most people know very little about the divide. They will just hear Cyprus mentioned and think oh, lets not risk it, lets go to
Spain/Italy/Greece instead, most are just looking for sunshine
and a hassle free holiday. So you could be shooting yourself in the foot as well as harming the north. Not thought it through
have you?
In the event of a court accepting such frivolous litigation, would it be worth the effort. I dont think so.
Polly , as true Cypriot , one who sees all Cypriots as part of the majority irrespective if Greek or Turkish speaking , when I use singular terms ie my homeland , my island , my property etc it is meant to be plural , ie , our properties are being sold to cheapskates etc etc , I’m not singly interested in MY PROPERTY , I’m interested in everyone’s property , G/C and T/C properties.
Many of you have failed to see the significance of our reluctance to castigate T/Cs for selling our properties to cheapskates , and although we are by no means absolving those T/Cs for selling our properties to cheapskates we understand that their “authorities ” allowed them to do so by confiscating their legal deeds of properties owned in the RoC and issuing them with their worthless deeds , such as in the Orams case .
You on the hand were not forced by events beyond your control to purchase dubious properties .You stupidly decided to invest in a part of the world that everyone apart from Turkey and senile old cheapskates , recognize as a part of the RoC under foreign occupation.
As a matter of fact I do visit the northern part , I do have T/C friends that I lunch with , my visits are restricted to a sole purpose in support of a worthy cause that knows no boundaries , ethnicity religion or age .
Polly, most GCs feel that they have lost much more than the TCs, that’s why you hear the “propaganda”. As to “give and take”, what more can the GCs give? Turkey gifted the TCs a far great share of the island than they are due, they emptied Varosha and they put two fingers up at us by dececrating the mountainside. Your TC friends don’t bring up the subject because many of those that remain in the north have are better off because they are kept by Turkey. I’ve seen posters on CY44 say “you lost the war, hard luck”
Had Turkey conquered 20% of Cyprus in 1974 the Cyprus problem would have been solved years ago.
As to the tourist industry, most Brits are aware of the difference between the north and south. Would you like a source for that?
My niece is manager of a branch of one the the UKs largest holiday operators, I’ve discuss Cyprus with her several times, people do know the difference so no feet have been shot.
Polly said : ” In the event of a court accepting such frivolous litigation, would it be worth the effort. I DON’T THINK so”
Absolutely spot on Polly , you just …don’t think !!
Jerry
I know the majority of people book on line so they rely on
catalogues and very little face to face booking these days.
They read something in the papers and just remember it is happening
in Cyprus. This will colour their decision – let see what the
summer season brings – both sides.
I do not doubt your neice makes people aware of the difference between
north and south when she gets to opportunity.
I think the reason my TC friends dont mention the conflict is that
they are too busy living their lives.
Yiannis
I cannot wait to see the first case of a trespassing tourist
go to court. At best it’ll be thrown out- worst case scenario
a fine. The south will look petty and vindictive which of course
they will be.
Having a good Sunday – good lunch and a nice claret?
From now on you Yiannis will be addressed by me (and others if they
wish) as Mr. Angry from the Mister Men childrens books, I did
consider Victor Meldrew but I feel he is too adult for you. The level of your sexism and insults qualifies you perfectly.
You did make a feeble attempt to condemn the TCs for selling
alleged stolen land but of course it was twisted, in your usual
fashion, to be the fault of the expats. It is part of the
charm offensive by the GCs towards the TCs – God help them if
they fall for it.
SO…..I’m still waiting.
Polly, once more you make unsupported assumptions. My niece has no axe to grind about Cyprus, she is British, she has no Cypriot blood in her. She has simply related to me what her customers say. She would be out of a job if, as you say, the majority book holidays on line. They book flights online but many still want to talk face to face where holiday destinations are concerned, I’ve done it myself and last time had to wait 20 minutes before a sales person was free.
Polly , you must surely have realized by now that I and the entire population of the RoC find you and the other cheapskates as contemptible to say the least.
Not only have you invested in usurped G/C property you have become the number one enemy of a united Cyprus.
Over the years I have challenged numerous G/Cs and T/Cs on the Cyprus PROPER forum , attacking those whose views are non constructive in the efforts to unite our island and our people.
None however have prosecuted with such ferocity as you do the permanent division and annexation of the occupied part by Turkey.
You are the enemies of Cyprus , you personify everything that is ugly and contemptible , what do you expect !!
YS writes, “Cyprus PROPER forum”
just like NCFP is a PROPER newspaper
Jerry, you are assuming that Polly means that your niece had an axe to grind. Even in 2007, 67% of people intended booking their holiday online (http://www.ukprwire.com/Detailed/Travel_Tourism/Logan_Tod_warns_competition_for_online_travel_sites_is_set_to_heat_up_9470.shtml) so again Polly was right.
Malcolm, you missed a bit in the survey at the end that says the survey was conducted online – I think that introduces an element of bias into the figures, don’t you?
And besides there are other variables that need to be taken into account such as which group spends more time and money whilst on holiday.
And yes, I assumed that Polly thought my niece is a Greek Cypriot.
Jerry
I apologise if your took my comment about your neice as a personal
afront. It was not meant to be.
Jerry, I agree that does bring in a bias but YouGov obviously knows this and that is why they have added, “the figures have been weighted.”
Calm down Mr. Angry
You really are getting your Y fronts in a twist. You know
you luv me really.
Your skill in debate is unsurpassed and your really know how to
frighten a girly.
This proper forum of yours, that the one where everyone agrees
with you? Well if you wait for me to agree with you it wont be in
this lifetime.
From Little Miss Understoodx
Sorry, there is just so much to read in the foregoing, that my poor addled British brain just cannot cope. So, I just want to post a couple of thoughts.
1. Is it not true that the RoC is as illegal as the north, cos the 1961 Constitution has been broken (read all about the rights of the TC’s which no longer exist.)
2. Are not the Brits and the GC’s more ‘brothers’ than GC and TC? Why? Cos they are both in the EU and Turkey is not. So who is the foreigner?????
That’s all – I must go and umscramble my brain.
Well Marie, the 1960 constitution is still in force and therefore according to its rules the RoC should not have been formed. However, it is internationally recognised and that supersedes local politics.
Marie
Lovely to see another female posting. Unscramble your brains
and come back – you obviously know your stuff. Ignore the sexist
comments you will undoubtedly get. When they run out of reasoned
argument they get personal. Typical school yard bullying. Hard
to believe that the worst offender is 64 (or so he says).
Marie , forget about “unscrabling ” your brain , just work on that single brain cell you appear to posess , you know the one that said
” 1. Is it not true that the RoC is as illegal as the north, cos the 1961 Constitution has been broken (read all about the rights of the TC’s which no longer exist.)”
Another senile old plonker comes to add credence to my many posts concerning senile old fools.
Marie said:
1. Is it not true that the RoC is as illegal as the north,
Polly , the brains answered :
“you obviously know your stuff”
Need I say more !!