A Greek Cypriot view of the Cyprus Problem

17 Responses to “A Greek Cypriot view of the Cyprus Problem”

1. yiannis savvides

   02/03/2010 at 7:26 pm

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   An extremely well written ” article” by a fellow Cypriot .
   I do not know ME but would wish him to know that I agree with all that he says , more so his reference to the Orthodox priests and the wrongly perceived notion by some of our T/C compatriots as to the influented exerted by the Church , which in reality as MA states the Churches involvement in politics is dislkiked by the Cypriots.He goes on to say that , he believes the Turkish intention was to devide the island , correct in every sense of the word.
   I’m sure that he shares my aversion directed at those whose actions brought about the biggest disaster that this island ever experienced that is the death of thousands , with hundreds missing from both sides and a devided island part of it occupied and full with CHEAPSKATES !

   Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive: 6  18

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2. Ian Edwards

   03/03/2010 at 3:00 am

   Can’t help yourself Yiannis, can you. Pity you can’t take a leaf out of Masta’s book and leave off with the insults…all it does is highlight your lack of class and smallness of mind.

   OK, now the article is public, so to speak, I will take a couple of those issues. Firstly, Masta, the junta may not have been the GCs’ choice, but it wasn’t the TCs’ either, and it was a direct threat to them through the imminent Enosis.

   Secondly, the “intervention” may have been described as legitimising the government, but in reality it provided safety and stability for the threatened TCs then, as it does today.

   Thirdly, those changes Makarios made in 1963 that you (and I’m sure all GCs) considered reasonable were in fact unlawful and unconstitutional, and all of them were to the disadvantage of the TCs. He may have been moderate towards the end, but he was still the architect of the troubles and bears much more than “part” of the blame.

   Finally, I note your comments about priests in politics, and the GCs’ feelings about that, and couldn’t agree more.

   Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive: 10  5

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3. polly

   03/03/2010 at 5:08 am

   Masta

   What a really informative article. I freely admit that until I came to Cyprus I was ignorant of your troubles.

   You are right about religion and politics not being a good mix,
   you only have to look closer to the my birthplace to know that,
   with Ian Paisley and the catholic priests never agreeing and
   muddying the waters in the Irish conflict. They call themselves
   ‘men of God’, I am sure God despairs of them all.

   I will make a special effort not to misdirect you in future.
   Clearly I underestimated you. Doesn’t mean I will always agree
   with you!!

   Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive: 8  1

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4. Malcolm Channing

   03/03/2010 at 6:58 am

   ME, from now on if someone types into Google, “greek cypriot view cyprus problem” then your article appears at the top of the search results.

   Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive: 6  3

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5. Tenakoutou

   03/03/2010 at 7:25 am

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   ‘We haven’t liked priests in Cyprus ever since; never mind having them involved in politics. This is contrary to what TCs believe about GCs.’

   Is this the reason why GC’s, either as drivers or pedestrians, hastily clutch their balls when they see a priest coming?

   Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive: 1  8

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6. Troodo

   03/03/2010 at 7:39 am

   A rather sanitised version of what went on, but, for a GC, better than complete denial.

   Keep digging for the truth Mastakounas,it is the only road to peace.

   Patientia est a donum superum.

   Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive: 5  3

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7. yiannis savvides

   03/03/2010 at 8:06 am

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   Ian , all that I say about your kind is true .You are a bunch of mercenary cheapskates, just look at how many rushed to click dislike on my post , which in totality was a fair assessment of MA’s “article” but concluded with the irrefutable truth that cheapskates not only rushed to buy stolen , yes stolen , properties and land in the OCCUPIED part of Cyprus while at the same time joining forces with the administrators of Turkish propaganda. Just take a look at CY44 and the ban imposed on the AGA members. The truth hurts it drives though the message that all of you behaved in an irresponsible fashion in electing to live and invest in a part of Cyprus that THE ENTIRE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY considers to be under the occupation of Turkey.

   The name Yiannis Savvides appearing is enough to instill aversion and hatred in all of you because you have by now realized that this guy is telling you the truth. You are a bunch of depraved scum bugs without principles and as I said before you are the enemies of Cyprus. You are disliked and ridiculed by the overwhelming majority of the Cypriot people.
   May I also remind you all , in an unrelated matter , that the mighty EURO whose demise you all predicted now stands at 1.10 to STG , so much for your senile predictions.
   Come on rush in with your ..knives !!

   Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive: 5  13

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8. JJ

   03/03/2010 at 8:16 am

   Hi Mastakounas,

   Congratulations on getting this published as an article. While I still don’t fully agree with some of your points I will not indulge in nitpicking because that would serve only to detract from the most reasoned and reasonable analysis I have ever read from your side of the Green Line. I think if your approach and attitude were reflected in those conducting the current talks then there would be a lot more progress.

   John

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   #4912
9. yiannis savvides

   03/03/2010 at 8:35 am

   Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

   JJ , a lot more progress could be made if Turkey understood that her demands of guarantor status are anathema to the vast majority of the Cypriot people who see her role in Cyprus as that of an invader and an occupier. The RoC has made huge concessions not least the abandonment of the most fundamental of democratic principles , that of majority rule and accepting rotating Presidency, this is unheard of in modern times where the 80 % of Cypriot people agree to a President from the minority 18%.
   Let me at this stage make it clear that as far as Im concerned there are no majorities or minorities in Cyprus when all are Cypriots first and foremost as Im and many many more G/Cs and T/Cs. The minorities and majorities are formed by those who consider foreign countries as their homelands and whose allegiance is not to Cyprus but to a foreign country.
   You make your comments as a matter of fact when in reality are merely repetitions from those that I consider as the enemies of Cyprus. Most of you know very little of Cyprus’s turbulent history , if I mention the name, once again SEVGUL ULUDAG or Mishaouli and Kavazoglu no doubt you would know nothing about and neither would you care , after all they are all bloody foreigners to you !!
   What I find annoying in your attitudes is the undisputed fact that such attitudes were formed not out of a genuine wish to see peace , prosperity and justice on the island of Cyprus , not out genuine concern about the welfare of the T/Cs -you dont give a toss about them they are only bloody foreigners to you – but to protect your dodgy investments .
   So do please carry on with your crocodile’s …concern of the T/C people , they can see through you mate !!

   Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive: 5  7

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10. Dr Don Campbell-Thomson

    03/03/2010 at 9:51 am

    It is so refreshing to read a sensible article written by a Greek Cypriot who doesn’t rave on the way Savvidas does. I can’t agree with all the points, but at last we have someone breaking the taboo and finally admitting that Makarios was the architect of the current situation. Makarios knew before he submitted his amendments to the constitution that they would be unaccceptable to the Turkish Cypriot Community. The first attacks on the Turkish Cypriot areas of Nicosia were on 23rd December whilst the Turkish Cypriot Goverment members were still reading the draft !
    It wasn’t just the timing which was wrong. It was a deliberate act to aggrevate the situation and to create an excuse to send in the armed police, militia and ex EOKA thugs to implement the Akritas plan.
    As I say, I can’t agree with all your statements but it is so refreshing to hear a Greek Cypriot accepting some of the blame at last. More of this and we might find a workable solution

    Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive: 7  2

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11. Kyriacos

    03/03/2010 at 10:08 am

    ”We haven’t liked priests in Cyprus ever since”

    Hey M.E take that back! ..i like priests.. i think they are sexy..

    Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive: 2  0

    #4916
12. polly

    03/03/2010 at 10:27 am

    Oh my goodness Mr. Angry has lost it (again)

    Dont forget you were a bloody foreigner living in my country
    long before you were an E.U. citizen, enjoying the benefits
    of living there and the hospitality, if you are such a
    patriotic Cypriot why werent you in Cyprus helping to sort your
    country out, paying your taxes to your government and generally
    giving something back to your motherland. Typical hypocrite,
    now you see something on the table and you want your share and
    everyone elses.

    Dont for one second ass/u/me you know whats going on in someone
    elses head, I doubt you know whats going on in your own. No one
    is interested in what you think we think. You are and will
    always be a sad deluded moron with no control over your temper
    or words. The only time I see the words bloody foreigners mentioned are in your postings Freudian slip??

    Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive: 5  4

    #4917
13. mastakounas evaggelos

    03/03/2010 at 11:31 am

    MC.

    its long. may be published in 2 parts but here it is.
    Its formating gets lost on pasting.

    A GC view on the Cyprus Issue.

    If an outsider wanted to look at the Cyprus issue from an “everyday” Greek-Cypriot’s point of view, one has to take into account the fact that nothing that has, or will be placed on the negotiating table is considered fair by a GC.
    Even if every (current) GC position placed on the table by GC politicians were to be agreed upon, the ending solution would still be considered unjust. If you are a GC reading this, in all probability, the above needs no extensive explanation.
    For others, here is an attempt to explain this “irrational behaviour”:
    I feel anyone who lost what the GCs lost in 74′, in the way they did, would demand full “restitution”. There is, however, no known restitution for betrayal, loss of human life, pain and suffering (although after 35 years an honest apology, surprisingly enough, would come close).
    This way of feeling (vs thinking) largely explains the GC politicians way of thought on the negotiating table. And in order to be fair regarding GC politicians, although they do recognise this “anomalus” effect in their strategy, they are unable to escape it due to the pressure they come under, politically, by their voters and their opponents.
    The above is mainly the reason (other than T.) why every solution placed on the negotiating table is worse than the one that came before. I assure you, a 1977 proposed solution would now be received with a huge approval rate by GCs should it was placed for vote.
    Here is a little more in-depth view of this way of thinking and some untruths that exist in the minds of GCs and TCs.

    Men in black, Makarios and other troubled bearded Makarios voting GCs
    The changes M. attempted to make in 1963 were in my view reasonable changes. It would allow the RoC to survive an unworkable constitution, one that was tilted in the favour of TCs.
    The TCs chose to walk out in protest encouraged by their separatist fanatical leadership who craved self-rule. They were after power.

    In retrospect of the 1963 events, he should have withdrawn these changes in order to re-unify the communities. He should have punished the people who committed crimes against TCs. He did none of that.
    He was wrong again in 74 in misjudging the idiocy of the Greek Junta and their intent to divide Cyprus. He was on the whole a moderate in views and mediocre as a politician.

    GCs are not particularly religious. Religion is ingrained in Greeks (as a culture) but people do not have strong religious beliefs and rarely attend church. As a whole we do not like the church. We also don’t like the way they look, all covered up and bearded like figures from previous centuries. The service in church is, in effect, in a different language which we “sort of understand” what is being preached.
    We don’t like to see them on TV, we don’t want them in our politics. They actually have little influence on what people think.
    We would like the church to be there for spiritual support and stay out of our lives.
    The above is contrary to what many TCs believe about GCs

    The misunderstood ENOSIS Saga
    It is often thought that GCs en mass supported ENOSIS before and during 74 and that the Junta in Cyprus had the support of the people (other than the 200-300 GC that opposed the RoC). It is also thought that Greece (and Greeks) wished GCs to join the Greek state.
    This is NOT true.
    Greece clearly stated in 55’ (to Makarios) that ENOSIS was not an option at the time. This remained the case to our day.
    The fact is that by 74 the only people “supporting” ENOSIS were the people who were not happy for being sidelined by Makarios’ (authoritarian) government and its spoils. These people did not care about unifying with Greece, all they wanted was to be in power. This was the EOKA B crowd. They were later pardoned by Makarios (as some kind of supreme over-ruler). These were the morons that got us into this mess. Most GCs think these people need to be in Jail, others turned a blind eye after the bloodbath in 74 for the sake of reconciliation. I feel Makarios’ policy of not punishing these people (and the people who committed the atrocities vs TCs earlier) is the reason why the RoC never really rose out of its problems.
    Everyday common Gcs, in the years before 74, were happy to keep getting richer and were getting comfortable. Greece was a deeply troubled place in the years 67-74. GCs were happy to stay put. No one spoke of making changes.
    Makarios opposed the Junta in Greece. Makarios was a threat to the generals in Greece (another story why). Clearly, no ENOSIS potential there.
    SO NO ENOSIS anywhere.. Not the people, not the politicians, and certainly not the army. Not even the GC hot-heads (like Grivas). They were all after POWER.
    I think if ENOSIS with Greece was put to vote today (or anytime after 67), it would receive no more than 1-2%.

    The Greek Junta, an award for idiocy and supreme betrayal
    The junta in Cy, did not represent the views of ANY GC (not even Nick Sampsons’, Allegedly, he had a gun to his head when taking over the Cy Junta presidency). Not only did the Junta not support ENOSIS, they actually FASCILITATED the Turkish invasion. This facilitation happened in real terms, on the ground, when the invasion was happening.
    We have hundreds of (Greek and GC) dead soldiers and thousands alive ones that will testify on how the Greek army command DELIVERED NC to Turkey. Turkey’s invasion to Cyprus would be militarily a very costly undertaking (even for mighty T.) had the Junta not arranged for this betrayal. They purposely sabotaged the defences of the RoC.
    The Greek Junta fell under the weight of what happened in Cy 3 days after the invasion occurred. Greece returned to democracy ever since.
    The generals then, disregarded the very real threat of T, invading. The goal was to oust Makarios, divide Cyprus and sustain a conflict so they can stay in power.
    GCs to this day feel betrayed by “mother” Greece (or rather its Junta).
    GCypriots are culturally different to natives of Greece. There are many reasons for this which are not really relevant to this article. It is important to point out that we are to an extend ”incompatible” with each-other

    So Turkey “intervenes”
    GCs think that the Ts. “intervention” occurred under the legitimate-looking pretext of protecting TCs from the regime that took power via taking over the RoC.
    Personally, I feel the threat to TCs under a Greek Junta was very real. The threat was real had T not invaded simply because the Junta would act violently to FORCE Turkey to invade. So T. pre-empted the threat and used the guarantees as cover. The Junta gave T, the perfect excuse. One has to wonder if this was a pre-agreed deal.
    It is important to say that there was no known anti-TC policy on Juntas’ part in the sense that their goal was not ethnic cleansing but simply to maintain power at all cost (including killing GCs and TCs alike).
    One of course has to mention that T. delayed this pre-planned invasion by 7 years. It was first attempted in 1967 but was foiled in the last moment by the intervention of primarily the U.S.
    So if the “intervention” was to restore legitimacy, it did none of that. One month after the invasion (and Juntas’ demise from power soon thereafter), T. proceeded to complete its division plans by expanding the territory it held, shaping it in the way it is today. In the process it committed crimes against innocent GCs which went unpunished by the courts of this world.
    I feel T. military had ( and still has) no real interest in the well-being of TCs, much in the way it has no real, well meant, interest of the T. people as a whole.
    Much like the Greek Junta, the establishment in T. were looking for a way to stay in the forefront of Turkish politics and maintain their status as “protectors” of the T. people. In effect, governing Turkey in the place of any elected democratic government.
    In the years to follow, the intention to move towards a solution was NEVER there with exception of T. PMs Ozal and Erdogan (for different reasons).T. had considered the Cyprus issue “solved” for the better part of the last 35 years. There are numerous such statements made by T. presidents to that end.
    T. proceeded with its plans in the mid-80s with a surprising announcement of the “trnc”. A turn from the popular view that T. would annex Cyprus. It then changed the demographics of NC so as to solidify the separation, much to the dismay of TCs, most of which had fled the island in the years before and after this.
    This kind of new “diplomatic” face of T. is news to all of us (including TCs). This new face first surfaced post 2003 with the opening of the “borders”. GCs feel that nothing has really changed. T. has simply took off its military uniform and put on a suit. I feel, however, this is an important change and hints to the fact that Turkey is making an effort for change. I am hopeful that Erdogan will prevail and will bring about slow but meaningful change.
    On TCs, “our brothers”
    We don’t like them. And let me explain why.
    I happen to think that the only people who lost more than we did were the (majority) of TCs. TCs were the only ones in this insane Cyprus story that had more people conspire against them than GCs did. The GCs were of course were this additional group that turned against TCs.
    GC marginalised and took advantage of TCs. Surprisingly not in the political arena (60-63 and after) but in a social/cultural way. We ignored TCs needs and plans like the Akritas plan sought to keep them on the sidelines of society. For this, GC are guilty and we cannot blame this our “bad leaders” for this.
    The reason why we do not like you is not the mutiny in 63 or the invasion in 74. It’s not even the “trnc” or the fact that you are living in our houses.
    TCs were no angels in the years between 55-59, 63-64 and in 74. They, however, only played a secondary role in terms of influencing the situation.
    And therein, is the reason why we do not like them. Because they never had the strength to voice any kind of opinion.
    They went from GCs pushing them around, to T. turning you into refugees and taking any voice they had. They let corrupt people run your “government”. They did not stay and fight, they fled to London. They let our houses be taken over by settlers who in turn deprived them of their own opinion in their internal matters. They did nothing to return Famagusta, ignoring the suffering of its inhabitants, letting it go to ruin instead.
    They didn’t protest when the T. army was killing GC civilians on the DMZ. They pretended they didn’t see. The few TCs who do voice opposition are marginalised in the TC community.
    Where are you? Where are you? Are you there? Do you care?

    GCs on themselves
    What a crowd!
    Short-changed by the Brits, mislead by our leaders, turned on TCs, betrayed by Greeks (Junta), turned on ourselves, invaded by Turks, abandoned by TCs
    What a ride!
    There is no doubt, we are ourselves to blame for what we have become. We had choices (not always), and we messed them up.
    Yes, everyone played their role and used us to get where they wanted to get to in their struggle for power in disregard to our best interests. But there is no denying, we were not defending Cyprus for Cypriots. We were living in denial of reality especially in the years prior to 74’
    Turkey is the perpetrator here and is guilty of crimes. And it is right for us to continue to fight them off the island.
    We have, I feel, learned our lesson. We paid for it with our own blood.
    GC on a solution
    The solution to the Cyprus problem is hidden in the misty world of Turkish governance and what seems to be an endless struggle for control of the sick man of Europe.
    Things are starting to turn, slowly very slowly.

    Peace

    Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive: 6  0

    #4919
14. Robin Melhuish

    03/03/2010 at 11:53 am

    The causes are pretty well documented, even if sometimes a little tainted, (depending on your particular side of the “fence”. The wheels are indeed turning, but unfortunately the fanatics (no names) have little time for fact or cohesive thought. Maybe if more time and efort was given to the status quo, than what caused it and who was to blame for it , progress would be a bit easier. MAybe a man with vision to put up a picture of “this is how I see the future” and not some demented neandertaler with “this is nmy impression of what caused the mess and I want revenge.”

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    #4921
15. Malcolm Channing

    03/03/2010 at 12:37 pm

    ME, there you go. I’ve left the original alone as its is now well established on the internet. The new article I like even more, and you have added several interesting, though-provoking and debate-stimulating extras. Thanks for that.

    Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive: 1  0

    #4922
16. Andreas

    04/03/2010 at 5:41 pm

    interesting debate. To those jingoistic individuals insulting Cypriots as “bloody foreigners” and “..you are in my country..” let me say this: I am not in your country, i do not care for your kind of people! But i have a right to comment and read all other comments whether i agree with them or not including your own ugly comments. By the same token, I would lik to say to those who engage in reasoned debate: i commend you for for it! Do not let the ignorants drive you off the net or intimidate your engagement.

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17. Ian Edwards

    04/03/2010 at 8:36 pm

    Hi Andreas, welcome to our debating forum.

    You appear to be referring to Polly’s comments about “bloody foreigners”, which ignores the background of her responses to the drivel we usually get from people like Yiannis. She isn’t in the habit of making “ugly” comments. She was merely throwing one back at Yiannis, who is one of the true jingoists on here.

    I think you have been a bit quick on the draw, and a bit precious in your criticism. You are certainly entitled to dislike whomever you like…

    But I haven’t seen any post which denies your right to read or comment on whatever you choose.

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    #4987