A Greek Cypriot view of the Cyprus Issue – revisited
Editor: “Mastakounas Evaggelos” has re-written his previous article and added several new observations.
If an outsider wanted to look at the Cyprus issue from an “everyday” Greek-Cypriot’s point of view, one has to take into account the fact that nothing that has, or will be placed on the negotiating table is considered fair by a GC.
Even if every (current) GC position placed on the table by GC politicians were to be agreed upon, the ending solution would still be considered unjust. If you are a GC reading this, in all probability, the above needs no extensive explanation. For others, here is an attempt to explain this “irrational behaviour”:
I feel anyone who lost what the GCs lost in 74′, in the way they did, would demand full “restitution.” There is, however, no known restitution for betrayal, loss of human life, pain and suffering (although after 35 years an honest apology, surprisingly enough, would come close).
This way of feeling (versus thinking) largely explains the GC politicians’ way of thought on the negotiating table, and in order to be fair regarding GC politicians, although they do recognise this “anomalous” effect in their strategy, they are unable to escape it due to the pressure they come under, politically, by their voters and their opponents.
The above is mainly the reason (other than Turkey) why every solution placed on the negotiating table is worse than the one that came before. I assure you, a 1977 proposed solution would now be received with a huge approval rate by GCs should it was placed for vote.
Here is a little more in-depth view of this way of thinking and some untruths that exist in the minds of GCs and TCs:
Men in black, Makarios and other troubled bearded Makarios-voting GCs.
The changes Makarios attempted to make in 1963 were in my view reasonable changes. It would allow the RoC to survive an unworkable constitution, one that was tilted in the favour of TCs. The TCs chose to walk out in protest encouraged by their separatist fanatical leadership who craved self-rule. They were after power.
In retrospect of the 1963 events, Makarios should have withdrawn these changes in order to re-unify the communities. He should have punished the people who committed crimes against TCs. He did none of that. He was wrong again in 74 in misjudging the idiocy of the Greek Junta and their intent to divide Cyprus. He was on the whole a moderate in views and mediocre as a politician.
GCs are not particularly religious.
Religion is ingrained in Greeks (as a culture) but people do not have strong religious beliefs and rarely attend church. As a whole we do not like the church. We also don’t like the way they look, all covered up and bearded like figures from previous centuries. The service in church is, in effect, in a different language which we “sort of understand” what is being preached. We don’t like to see them on TV, we don’t want them in our politics. They actually have little influence on what people think. We would like the church to be there for spiritual support and stay out of our lives. The above is contrary to what many TCs believe about GCs
The misunderstood ENOSIS Saga
It is often thought that GCs en mass supported ENOSIS before and during 74 and that the Junta in Cyprus had the support of the people (other than the 200-300 GC that opposed the RoC). It is also thought that Greece (and Greeks) wished GCs to join the Greek state. This is NOT true. Greece clearly stated in 55’ (to Makarios) that ENOSIS was not an option at the time. This remained the case to our day. The fact is that by 74 the only people “supporting” ENOSIS were the people who were not happy for being sidelined by Makarios’ (authoritarian) government and its spoils. These people did not care about unifying with Greece, all they wanted was to be in power. This was the EOKA B crowd. They were later pardoned by Makarios (as some kind of supreme over-ruler). These were the morons that got us into this mess. Most GCs think these people need to be in Jail, others turned a blind eye after the bloodbath in 74 for the sake of reconciliation. I feel Makarios’ policy of not punishing these people (and the people who committed the atrocities vs TCs earlier) is the reason why the RoC never really rose out of its problems.
Everyday common GCs, in the years before 74, were happy to keep getting richer and were getting comfortable. Greece was a deeply troubled place in the years 67-74. GCs were happy to stay put. No one spoke of making changes. Makarios opposed the Junta in Greece. Makarios was a threat to the generals in Greece (another story why). Clearly, no ENOSIS potential there. SO NO ENOSIS anywhere. Not the people, not the politicians, and certainly not the army. Not even the GC hot-heads (like Grivas). They were all after POWER. I think if ENOSIS with Greece was put to vote today (or anytime after 67), it would receive no more than 1-2%.
The Greek Junta, an award for idiocy and supreme betrayal
The junta in Cyprus, did not represent the views of ANY GC, not even Nick Sampson’s. Allegedly, he had a gun to his head when taking over the Cyprus Junta presidency. Not only did the Junta not support ENOSIS, they actually FACILITATED the Turkish invasion. This facilitation happened in real terms, on the ground, when the invasion was happening. We have hundreds of (Greek and GC) dead soldiers and thousands of alive ones that will testify on how the Greek army command DELIVERED NC to Turkey. Turkey’s invasion of Cyprus would be militarily a very costly undertaking (even for mighty Turkey) had the Junta not arranged for this betrayal. They purposely sabotaged the defences of the RoC.
The Greek Junta fell under the weight of what happened in Cyprus 3 days after the invasion occurred. Greece returned to democracy ever since. The generals then, disregarded the very real threat of Turkey invading. The goal was to oust Makarios, divide Cyprus and sustain a conflict so they can stay in power.
GCs to this day feel betrayed by “mother” Greece (or rather its Junta). Greek Cypriots are culturally different to natives of Greece. There are many reasons for this which are not really relevant to this article. It is important to point out that we are to an extent ”incompatible” with each-other.
So Turkey “intervenes”
GCs think that the Turkish “intervention” occurred under the legitimate-looking pretext of protecting TCs from the regime that took power via taking over the RoC. Personally, I feel the threat to TCs under a Greek Junta was very real. The threat was real had Turkey not invaded simply because the Junta would act violently to FORCE Turkey to invade. So Turkey pre-empted the threat and used the guarantees as cover. The Junta gave Turkey the perfect excuse. One has to wonder if this was a pre-agreed deal.
It is important to say that there was no known anti-TC policy on Juntas’ part in the sense that their goal was not ethnic cleansing but simply to maintain power at all cost (including killing GCs and TCs alike). One of course has to mention that Turkey delayed this pre-planned invasion by 7 years. It was first attempted in 1967 but was foiled in the last moment by the intervention of primarily the U.S.
So if the “intervention” was to restore legitimacy, it did none of that. One month after the invasion (and the Juntas’ demise from power soon thereafter), Turkey proceeded to complete its division plans by expanding the territory it held, shaping it in the way it is today. In the process it committed crimes against innocent GCs which went unpunished by the courts of this world.
I feel that the Turkish military had (and still has) no real interest in the well-being of TCs, much in the way it has no real, well meant, interest of the Turkish people as a whole. Much like the Greek Junta, the establishment in Turkey were looking for a way to stay in the forefront of Turkish politics and maintain their status as “protectors” of the Turkish people. In effect, governing Turkey in the place of any elected democratic government.
In the years to follow, the intention to move towards a solution was NEVER there with exception of Turkish PMs Ozal and Erdogan (for different reasons).Turkey had considered the Cyprus issue “solved” for the better part of the last 35 years. There are numerous such statements made by Turkish Presidents to that end. Turkey proceeded with its plans in the mid-80s with a surprising announcement of the “TRNC”. A turn from the popular view that Turkey would annex Cyprus. It then changed the demographics of North Cyprus so as to solidify the separation, much to the dismay of TCs, most of whom had fled the island in the years before and after this.
This kind of new “diplomatic” face of Turkey is news to all of us (including TCs). This new face first surfaced post 2003 with the opening of the “borders”. GCs feel that nothing has really changed. Turkey has simply took off its military uniform and put on a suit. I feel, however, this is an important change and hints to the fact that Turkey is making an effort for change. I am hopeful that Erdogan will prevail and will bring about slow but meaningful change.
On TCs, “our brothers”
We don’t like them. And let me explain why. I happen to think that the only people who lost more than we did were the (majority) of TCs. TCs were the only ones in this insane Cyprus story that had more people conspire against them than the GCs did. The GCs were of course this additional group that turned against TCs. GC marginalised and took advantage of TCs. Surprisingly not in the political arena (1960-63 and after) but in a social/cultural way. We ignored TCs’ needs and plans like the Akritas plan sought to keep them on the sidelines of society. For this, GCs are guilty and we cannot blame our “bad leaders” for this.
The reason why we do not like you is not the mutiny in 1963 or the invasion in 1974. It’s not even the “TRNC” or the fact that you are living in our houses. TCs were no angels in the years between 1955-59, 1963-64 and in 1974. They, however, only played a secondary role in terms of influencing the situation. And therein, is the reason why we do not like them. It’s because they never had the strength to voice any kind of opinion. They went from GCs pushing them around to Turkey turning them into refugees and taking any voice they had. They let corrupt people run their “government”. They did not stay and fight, they fled to London. They let GC houses be taken over by settlers who in turn deprived them of their own opinion in their internal matters. They did nothing to return Famagusta, ignoring the suffering of its inhabitants, letting it go to ruin instead.They didn’t protest when the Turkish army was killing GC civilians on the DMZ. They pretended they didn’t see that. The few TCs who do voice opposition are marginalised in the TC community.
Where are you? Where are you? Are you there? Do you care?
GCs on themselves
What a crowd! Short-changed by the Brits, mislead by our leaders, turned on TCs, betrayed by Greeks (Junta), turned on ourselves, invaded by Turks, abandoned by TCs. What a ride!
There is no doubt, we are ourselves to blame for what we have become. We had choices (not always), and we messed them up.
Yes, everyone played their role and used us to get where they wanted to get to in their struggle for power in disregard to our best interests. But there is no denying, we were not defending Cyprus for Cypriots. We were living in denial of reality especially in the years prior to 1974. Turkey is the perpetrator here and is guilty of crimes. And it is right for us to continue to fight them off the island.
We have, I feel, learned our lesson. We paid for it with our own blood.
GC on a solution
The solution to the Cyprus problem is hidden in the misty world of Turkish governance and what seems to be an endless struggle for control of the sick man of Europe. Things are starting to turn, slowly very slowly.
Peace
number of views: 1063




Mastakounas
Congratulations on an excellent well-balanced article.
I read and considered every word twice and could not agree with absolutely everything you say, my differences are not worth recording.
I appreciate the insight that you have provided, and will view your future postings in a fresh light.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
5
0
Masta
Ditto Thunderbox.
I actually cried (well I am a girly so I can) Well written
good on you.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
4
0
Masta,
Agree that it’s an excellent article . . but I was surprised by your comments “On TC’s”. Not particularly by the observation that GC’s don’t like TC’s (although there are many GC’s on other forums who will go out of their way to assert the opposite) but more because of the reasoning.
What you seem to be saying is that GC’s don’t like TC’s because they didn’t push back against political/military decisions taken by those in positions of power over the years.
What seems to me particularly harsh about this is that earlier in you article there is the recognition that political/military decisions by GC/Greek leaders were what created the problem (for the GC’s but particularly for the TC’s) in the first place. It could be equally argued that this problem could have been prevented by a push back from the GC community. So the thing that you criticise the TC community for is something the GC community have no better track record on.
Furthermore, if I understand correctly your opening comments, GC’s would see any proposed solution as unjust largely because they feel that they were not responsible for the actions which resulted in the current problem – that they blame others (which does seem to be a recurring theme). Is there no sense of collective responsibility for letting their appointed leaders create the problem.
Finally, if GC’s feel that any solution would be “unjust” it seems that we are not going to see them voting “Yes” whatever the politicians come up with. Is that your view?
I ask these questions with a genuine desire to understand more – not with any intent to provoke.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
6
0
Yeah, me too, Masta. As I said in my reply to your first article, I take issue with you about a couple of points such as Makarios and Enosis, and I’m certain the UK and USA had their grubby little hands in the pie as well, but I don’t want to bend anything out of shape.
As one of the other posters said, it’s more important now to look to the future and try to make it work.
For my own humble offering, the present situation has a lot going for it politically, and I’d be quite happy for the TRNC not to become part of the rat race EU. I believe Turkey should open all ports and the EU/ROC should lift all blockades. All military personnel, both Turkish and Greek, should be phased off the island. Those who left land should be financially compensated (even those who own Larnaca Airport), as should those who left houses. The funding should come from Turkey.
I don’t believe we saw justice done in the Orams case. I believe the ROC and ECJ courts were clearly biassed, and the British Court of Appeal was weak. If they really felt trespass was proven, why order the bloody villa demolished? It was a travesty. It will be hard on those people who have a genuine emotional attachment to a home or special plot of land, although it should be noted that Mr Apostolides’ claim he only wanted his land back was undermined by him only suing for 10% of it.
It’s tough, and I feel sorry for people in situations like Jerry, but after 36 years new homes should really have been forged. A fair remuneration should be paid to those people who can prove former ownership. Just how that should be done is something to ponder, for I couldn’t in all honesty trust the GC Land Office in Nicosia to be the sole arbiter of genuine title.
I can’t see any winners in my scenario, and in fact don’t consider there should be. People like Jerry will be compensated losers, but former landowners will receive what could be termed a resumption allowance similar to the realisation of an investment. There should be no governmental appropriation, in either the north or the south – all resumed land should be financially compensated.
It’s now pointless for anyone to begin complaining that this is an unfair situation and they will lose. There will and should be no winners. If intransigence remains, so will sadness and sorrow.
As Masta said, it’s time for peace.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
6
0
Much of what my G/C compatriot so eloquently presents I concur with , but I will challenge him with his statement ” On TCs, “our brothers”
We don’t like them.”
If he pays a visit to CY Forum he will quickly discover that apart from a small minority of G/Cs the majority consider the T/Cs as their compatriots , just as I do , and have no animosity towards the T/Cs . I can not mention names but I can most certainly ask Jerry as well as Bill both of whom post here for their views which most of you will see are similar to mine.
The extremists were the culprits not the average T/C or G/C and certainly the extremists were those who consider NOT Cyprus as their homeland but Greece or Turkey .
Hot debate. What do you think?
5
5
Excellent comments Ian, just one point of law – the reason for the insistence that the Orams’ villa be demolished was that they were seen to have trespassed and criminally damaged Mr A’s property. I would, however, argue that building a villa does not reduce the value of a field though. The idea that Turkey pays £2-3bn compensation should surely appeal to GCs.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
5
0
YS, it is no use asking British Cypriots, like Bill and Jerry, how Cyprus-Cypriots feel. I think that ME’s comments about TCs who left for Britain also apply to GCs.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
Fair enough, Malcolm…that just reinforces my opinion that the law is an ass.
I believe I’ve seen that said elsewhere, too…
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
Masta, I appreciate your article and more importantly the opinions and overview. Concise, and yet more meat than books on the subject.
More importantly than my thoughts, I think that many to most TC’s would share and appreciate your thoughts. The one thing I further ask is in your opinion how do TC’s get over a genuine fear to reunite? If a few could wreak such havoc before is the ROC ready and able to contain it in the present? It may sound irrational at this time, but fear is powerful in how it affects emotion.
Secondly, a more philosophical question, if the governments are so inept, as you point to, how can they be effectual in serious dialog?
Malcolm, I also appreciate the courage to print Masta’s views. It is within this type of conversation that this issue will be resolved. A Masta on the one side, and if we could find a TC that could speak as forthright for the TC’s we would be much closer to a solution if not solved long ago.
(Aside note: I think in fairness to Masta, it is appropriate to pull down the other article. You asked him to rewrite it and he did.)
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
4
0
Malcolm on my previous comment, I guess maybe I am too hasty. It would be up to Masta on whether the draft and final both appear. It is not my place to determine that.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
thanx for the comments everyone, I think the above comes close to representing the point of view of most gcs as I understand it. These are views that are in the “public domain” for awhile now.
VH,
On not likeing the TCs.
Well you would be right if you disregarded difference in time periods and conditions. GCs did not do enough to prevent the crimes against TCs (things would have been much worse if the RoC did not hold these animals at bay). The events in 74 were outside anyones control, including the Greeks. The events in 74 did NOT relate to the TCs.
And in any case, GCs do not hold TCs accountable for the actions of T. We feel that this situation was brought upon them as well. What we are upset about is the fact they did nothing to solve the problem over the last 35 years. Some (TC) of them were happy with the new situation, others just left or went along with it. It’s very difficult for us to understand how they can disregard the problem that was created and go along with the actions of T.
To be completely honest, I also dont think that GCs have been making an attack of friendship to TCs over the last 35 years, they simply want their homes back, TCs come as a package with that.
On the solution issue:
the GCs consider any solution other than return to the pre 74 situation unjust. This refference relates to “everyday” GC who indeed had nothing to do with the political events that happened over the previous 45 years. You may consider this a disconnection between ppl and politicians but this is the reality in the minds of those who will cast the final vote to aprove a solution. Thats why this is important.
It’s worth mentioning that GC politician also consider that the events of 74 had nothing to do with TCs and thus the intervention of T. is compleltely unjustfiied. I agree with that view myself.
and I ask you:
Is “the attila” military action an equitable response to the actions of a few crazed GCs killing a few dozen TCs a decade back?
Should we all pay for the crimes of 3 teams of 25 year olds in 1963? This is Ts only valid argument to justify the occupation of CY.
I don’t disagree with most of what ME has written. The Cyprus problem is often presented as one side always in the wrong and therefore the other must be right. Bad people on both sides have victimised the other – that does not mean that ALL GCs/TCs are ALWAYS bad. I don’t believe that on a one to one basis GCs dislike TCs, they seem to get on well enough in the UK because they live in a stable democracy. In Cyprus, however, as a group they are seen as fifth columnists, the pawns of Turkey. Individually, on the island, they get on – otherwise how would you explain the thousands that cross the green line and the 2000 TCs who now live in the south.
Both sides have issues with the other but in terms of who feels they have lost the most post 1974 I’m sure those in the ROC feel the TCs have gained at their expense. Any settlement that is seen by the GCs as a “punishment” for the past will never be acceptable, that is how they felt about the Annan plan. The guarantees are seen as part of that “punishment” (why is Cyprus the only country in the world to be inflicted with them?)
My personal view, and I know others will disagree, is that an international commission should be set up to determine the proportions of land ownership and that partition should follow. Such a move would obviate the need for guarantees and solve the settler/ex-pat problem. A degree of re-integration would occur within the EU although I have no doubt that permanent derogations would need to be agreed.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
6
1
ME, what I find remarkable about your article is the way you separate the Turkish military from the government; this was something that did not occur to me. To take your point further, as you have done, the current Turkish government is attempting to put the military in it’s place and trying to correct the problem in Cyprus which possibly it sees as being caused and perpetuated by the military. At the same time Erdogan has to keep the majority of Turkey on his side and to not upset those who feel it is weak to surrender territory, as it might appear when they pull out of Cyprus.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
3
0
Malcolm, it’s also possible that Erdogan now sees an almost bankrupt Greece as less of a threat than in the past so the traditional view of the military that needed to “protect it’s southern flank” no longer applies. I wonder if, at last, pressure from outside is shifting Turkey’s attitude to a settlement ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/03/cyprus-turkey-eu-uk ) or is Erdogan cynically appearing to give ground just before the talks fail.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
Jerry, I believe Erdogan’s statement may be about as cynical as GC MEP Kasoulides’ offer of his seat to TCs
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
Malcolm , the views of the diaspora G/Cs are not fundamentally at odds with the Cyprus G/Cs . That there are differing views on how one perceives the T/Cs and visa verse goes without question.
The diaspora G/Cs have been tremendously beneficial to the creation of conciliatory approach and acceptance by the majority of G/Cs living in Cyprus that our compatriots the T/Cs have as much right to the island as we have.
Many of us UK Cypriots have not had first hand experience of the horrors of the conflict years and perhaps we are less embittered and more conciliatory towards each other , also many of us, including myself have a daily interaction with the T/Cs so we have come to understand their concerns just as they ours.
I have yet to meet a G/C here in the UK that harbours outright hatred for the T/Cs likewise I do not know of one T/C who hates G/Cs.
My opinion has always been that the Cypriot people have never in their history enslaved , conquered , exploited or committed atrocities against another nation and its citizens. Preoccupied with the struggle to survive , bring up families , improve their lives and those of their loved ones these have been the priorities of Cypriots through out history.
Some consider either the G/Cs or T/Cs to be ruthless , barbaric in some respects , characterizations that gained prominence over a very short period of time , nothing could be further from the truth .
Our people are on the whole tolerant , respectful , generous with a high sense of values , these values are their guiding spirit not hatred and sanguine.
To be critical is not to be hateful , to tell the truth is not be spiteful .
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
7
0
“Is “the attila” military action an equitable response to the actions of a few crazed GCs killing a few dozen TCs a decade back?
Should we all pay for the crimes of 3 teams of 25 year olds in 1963? This is Ts only valid argument to justify the occupation of CY.”
Masta, I think you answered your own question before when you indicated that the government was not strong enough to reign these folks in. And therefore, lack of action at some “level” provides complicity.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
5
0
This is a great article….I feel much wiser for reading it..I am the son of tc parents…
Mastakounas Evaggelos ,I applaud you for your wise and unbiased version of events…
Someone like you should be given a huge platform to educate the masses ..Your view and voice will help persuade public opinion to push and force a just solution…
I hope every TV station across europe gives you a prime time slot..
As a proud TC, I have heard many stories …it’s the truth that will set us all free
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
6
0
Yes, Masta, I believe it’s a little more complex than “a few crazed GCs killing a few dozen TCs a decade back.” Three teams of 25 year olds committing some crimes in 1963 doesn’t, I think, quite tell the whole tale either.
Isn’t it more realistic to consider that Makarios and his followers were bombarding the TCs physically, politically, socially, culturally and religiously in an attempt to Greek them off the island?
Or is the truth somewhere in between?
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
6
1
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive:
2
4
You didn’t fool me for a minute, Yiannis.
What source did you use to cut and paste message 4941?
It certainly wasn’t anything you originated. There wasn’t an insult or any abuse in it, and the expression is a whole lot more sophisticated than anything of which you are capable….
Hot debate. What do you think?
2
2
whover wrote this, I would like to discuss further 0533 861 2397
my only problem with your view is that it is written with the benefit of hindsight – could you have written this in 1974?
god help us all
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
3
1
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive:
2
6
i take it next week we’ll be reading about a turkish cypriots view of the cyprus issue, which most likely will make good reading. what ever people think about turkey’s reasons for invading cyprus, it’s obvious turkey’s timing was spot on, the americans were just getting over an 8 year war with vietnam with a loss of nearly 55.000 men, britain had it’s own problem in N Ireland with over 20.000 soldiers stationed there, then we had the oil crisis, greece was in turmoil, maybe if cyprus had been a country with resources which britain and america relied on, some help might have came their way. It’s a bit ironic when you think about, when britain took cyprus off turkey’s hand in 1878, on the agreement britain would support turkey, if invaded by the ussr as turkey was fearing an invasion by the ussr to take some of her lands. then 90 odd years later turkey invaded cyprus to protect the TC’s there, from the british point of view it was better for them that turkey invaded and not the greeks. and the latest, for £1 you will get €1.0590.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
5
1
Ian Couldnt agree more about Yiannis – in fact I fell off
my chair LAUGHING.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
3
1
Re post 4937
Jerry your final paragraph of the above post is unbelievably
generous of you considering your own fathers retirement home
is now occupied as a holiday home by TCs. Sadly, I do not think
a re-unified island is feasible at present – never say never.
I still believe when it becomes politically expedient to sell
someone down the river, the politicians will do just that.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
5
0
Polly, I have the feeling that Jerry believes an international commission would decide to give him back his father’s (now his) house.
But if that were the case, what do you do with the people who paid GBP150,000 for it? Should they lose it all?
Clearly, that’s where a major problem lies, and I don’t think it’s nearly good enough for extremists like Yiannis et al to say ‘yes’.
That isn’t a fair compromise.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
4
0
Ian
I think every sane person on this board takes little or no notice
of what Yiannis says, clearly he’s away with the fairies who
live at the bottom of Moovers garden (whatever happened to Moover).
It would be entirely unfair for ex pats, who despite Yiannis’s
beliefs, did purchase in good faith, aided by the duly elected
government here and NO they should not loose everything they own
and have put their heart and soul into. The stress is taking its toll on them now, it would finish off the less able. That is
a price, no-one deserves to pay.
Jerry has now become like someone I know and so it pains me to say
it, but I think he has to take compensation rather than his house,
that is my opinion and not a suggestion to Jerry, at the end of the day he will do what is right for him as indeed we all would.
You never know Ian, the Yiannis who is not spiteful and vindictive
might even agree with me. hahahahahahahaha
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
6
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive:
3
5
Ian
There we were having a perfectly affable exchange of views
when in comes old beaky spewing his usual vitriol.
All I can say where’s the new gentle agreeable model – didnt
last long did he?
Cant you just picture it Mr Angry foaming at the mouth, steam coming out of his ears bashing away at the keyboard – puts you
off your lunch doesnt it?
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
4
3
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive:
3
5
Polly, in response to Malcolm a couple of days ago I said I did not want to live in a TC state (it probably would not be allowed anyway). If the land issue was resolved I would expect to receive TC land in the ROC. I would expect Turkey, with others, to contribute to a fund that would compensate for the loss of the building and its use.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
9
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive:
3
5
Mr Proctols, if you really believe what you write, then you are spouting classic intransigence. To keep on telling the world what YOU want, and not caring how much other innocent buyers may lose, is clearly why there will never be a settlement.
If you really wanted a settlement, and possessed even modest intellect, you would understand the essential need for compromise. Without it, absolutely nothing will change, and not even your great-great grandchildren will get your house back, if indeed you actually left one.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
5
2
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive:
2
4
Jerry, I apologise for your comments keep going in the moderation queue. Currently the only people who should be doing that are those with a new email/IP address.
I agree with you although from what I remember of the 2-state idea there was an attempt to prevent wealthy GCs from economically dominating TCs in their state. I really don’t know what this means in terms of the number of GCs “allowed” to reside there but I would hope that NIL would not be the case.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
Jerry
Just as I expected – you really are a decent human being.
I hope you get everything you want – I am only sorry that
you cannot live in the TRNC at present – nothing lasts forever,
maybe your grandchildren and great grandchildren will see a
more settled Cyprus – I pray they will.
GP
Do you really want your home back – if it were possible for you
to move back tomorrow – would you? 0ne point you have totally
wrong, for most ex pats here, it is not a holiday home, it is
their only home and only asset. How many do you really think
would voluntarily stay in the face of such hostility. When
everything they have is under attack and they are of an age not
to be able to easily start again, what else can they do but sit
tight and pray.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
5
1
Malcolm
I go off to have some lunch and when I get back someone has stolen
my face. Good thing I have two!!
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
3
1
unrecognisedbutstillstanding
03/03/2010 at 9:41 pm
said”
whover wrote this, I would like to discuss further 0533 861 2397
my only problem with your view is that it is written with the benefit of hindsight – could you have written this in 1974?
god help us all”
The answer is simply NO. I dont think you would have found anyone to say these things “back then”. I will not pretend that I could have said any of these things even in the mid-90s
why is it importantant? many of the facts mentioned (especially 77 prior) are part of history rather than a current affair.
I would happily discuss this further, but why keep the discussion private ? talk away here.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
6
0
Thomas,
re: complicity.
The answer is that you are, in strict terms, right. It would be pretensious on my side to absolve the RoC gov due to weakness or stupidity.
But you choose to ignore that the all the players involved in 74 never acted to really save the people (even though for some there was real danger). They acted in order to protect their own interests in maintaining power & expanding their powers.
Using one crime as a pre-text to committ another does not make it right.It may make a good sounding excuse (it plays on the saving lives argument) but in this case, in my view, it certainly does not qualify.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
MC said:
“separate the Turkish military from the government;”
Every since “ataturk” created the Turkish Republic this struggle for power has been in existance. There official admitions by T. PMs regarding the existance of an organised “deep state”.
The news in T. the last few weeks (and the last 5 years) talk volumes on the matter.
We are ALL (including most of Europe)watching closely at Mr Erdogan. I personally wish him the best of success.
If i were to make a prediction, Erdogan will have the fate of others who attempted this in the past. This time though, the army may end up waking up a much bigger monster. The Turkish masses.
This is not a light matter, things can turn very nasty very quickly. My house is a few miles away from 40K turkish troops armed to the teeth…
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
HOLDING MY BREATH
The final chapter to the Orams case to be written tommorow.
The demopoulos vs T. ECHR decision is coming out. Very important for those who hope to lock down the property issue in Cy.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
Polly: “someone has stolen my face”
Stupid software, it stopped working so I’m looking for an alternative.
Constructive or Abusive:
0
0
ME, how can the final chapter of the Orams case be written tomorrow when they are allegedly applying to the Supreme Court of England & Wales and have not been given a date. Mind you, I’m getting confused about the role of this new Supreme Court v Court of Appeal
Constructive or Abusive:
0
0
ME,
I am not aware of this Orams move, i thought their attempt to move to another court failed shortly after they lost.I will look it up.
The demopoulos vs T does not directly relate to the A Vs O but will end the issue of having to go the “property commission” in the north to sue T. for damages.
In other words, if the court decides in favour of demopoulos it means that the property commission in effect goes out of action.
This is important because it opens a quick road to sue T. for damages v quickly and en mass. These lawsuits will be based on A vs O.
If it decides against, the property comission will get v busy indeed. I wonder where the “trnc” will find all the money to pay up proper prices.
This is v important politcally for Talat vs eroglu.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
ME, I knew about the IPC decision but not when it was being decided. As far as I know Turkey has allocated £1.5bn, I believe, to compensate GCs and in some cases was even considering returning land. I really can’t remember where that info came from. What would this quick route be if the IPC becomes defunct?
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
The Case of the Stolen Faces. I’ve just done some checks and it looks like a Turk Telecom server is out and traffic is not being redirected. Some websites work but others don’t and one of those websites supplies the faces.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
Masta,
“Using one crime as a pre-text to committ another does not make it right.It may make a good sounding excuse (it plays on the saving lives argument) but in this case, in my view, it certainly does not qualify.”
I am not sure the second is a crime. And your initial comments lend credence to the Turkish intervention when it first happened.
Before 74 the ROC was the government of “All” people. But it was not protecting its people: Both the Cypriots of Greek decent and the Cypriots of Turkish Decent. It seems to me that the Turkish military saved both the Greeks and Turks (lives) from a government that could not. Kind of like when a child throws a temper tantrum they are sent to their room. The problem is that this child has never calmed down in the 36 years hence and therefore the Turkish Army never left. Now to accuse them of a crime for keeping two sides apart in my mind is a perversion. And I know that is in my mind as you do not share the same sentiment. However, had they not done what they did the place was going down fast. What would have happened if they stood back and watched. Would you be a part of Greece today?
I have spoken with people who personally saw planes coming in to the airport the day before the invasion and diverting to the hangers away from the terminals. There was a great fear. These it turned out were loaded with weapons. Either the government was involved or they were incapable of preventing the situation that was developing. But it was developing at their own airport.
I think that rightfully so the government was the problem, but you cannot divorce yourself from the government and throw that away and then say the Turkish army is in a crime because they rose to meet the challenge of a government that the people of Cyprus acknowledge was a problem. Now you want them to pay for the cleanup that Cypriots should have done themselves. That is an altered reality that I frankly do not understand.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
4
2
Thomas, I don’t believe that Turkey’s “intervention” is as benign as you make out. There is much evidence to support the notion that Turkey has wanted to regain control of Cyprus since the 1950s let’s hope Erdogan’s recent words reflect a change of direction. Even IF the GCs were entirely to blame for the Cyprus problem pre 1974 (and I dispute that) you need to ask: -
Why was it necessary to conquer 37% of the island to accommodate 18% of the population??
Why it was necessary to evict 10,000+ GCs from the north two years after the invasion?
Why is it necessary to keep 50,000(?) GCs from their homes in Varosha?
Why has Turkey illegally imported tens of 000s of immigrants to north Cyprus?
Why have so many TCs left the “state” that Turkey created for them?
Of course the GCs have to a degree, as M.E. points out, been victims of their own folly and pre 1963 one could say the same about the TCs. However you cannot punish a community in perpetuity by expecting them to accept a solution that is contrary to universally accepted standards of democracy and human rights – that is why the agreements of 1960 failed – if either side feels cheated it will happen again.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
4
0
“There is much evidence to support the notion that Turkey has wanted to regain control of Cyprus since the 1950s”…Jerry, Turkey HAD control of Cyprus in 1974. She didn’t conquer 37% of the island to accommodate anyone, she had already conquered 100% of it. She stopped at 37% because that was where Nicosia happened to be.
You tend to the use of too much spin, Jerry. The way you frame many of your questions is like me asking you why you beat your wife.
“universally accepted standards of democracy and human rights”…Jerry, that’s simply more generalised spin. You’ve already stated that you would accept compensation for your house, and I’ve already suggested that Turkey should pay it. If the GCs keep wanting everything to be as it was before 1974, nothing will change.
Both sides need to compromise and stop feeling cheated. As I said, there should be no big winners in a settlement – everyone should be prepared to lose a little, perhaps so that Cyprus can run out the eventual winner.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
4
2
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive:
3
5
Malcolm!!!! Real….ly!!!!! How dare you call me a “British Cypriot” !!!!! I haven’t felt so insulted for years!!!!
Have you know am a born and bred practically an Englishman, who loves traditional Anglo-Saxon Values. Just happen to have (sometimes troublesome) CY genes.
Reh Yiannis, bou eese? Yes I love all our tissy brothers and sisters. All have ever met have been pretty decent people, except for an Unbumgoed! chap Jerry and I met a few weeks ago, who went on and on and on about some unpleasantness in 1963, and then he went on and on and on about it again and seemed to hold me personally responsible (!).
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
4
0
GP Since you consider the island of Cyprus as one, you are trying to violate our human rights by expecting fellow EU citizens
to leave Cyprus. Wishful thinking on your part. Your British
Empire argument doesnt work, after all it was the upper class
British who first went to the colonies, there are also a large
proportion of other northern europeans here too – and – the
Russians are coming……
Poor Thomas – your second face is even worse – downright scary.
You wait for one and then two come along! As for my second face
I look like a refugee from a Fu Man Chu film. All good fun Malcolm
but the monocle, dont let it turn you into Mr. Angry.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
4
1
GP, the main role the British Empire played was bankrupting itself fighting Nazism in WW2 and then giving back Cyprus to the Cypriots in 1960. The main role the Cypriots played was…?
Another thing GP, you seem to have a “get back to where you came from” attitude at odds with Cyprus’ EU entry. Soon Cyprus will start to fill up with people with voting rights from Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and United Kingdom. Later on they will be joined by people from Croatia, Turkey and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
My apologies Bill, someone misled me by implying you were GC, I hadn’t realised that your GC genes had been sufficiently diluted to distance you from the accusation of being a British Cypriot. My own genes, via a DNA test, link me to Eastern Europe, Anatolia and the Middle East. I’m only just about British, an ancestor having come over with the Romans around 400AD, according to genetic theorists.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
Malcolm,
I had always thought you were like me – “100% Anglo-Saxon, with perhaps just a dash of Viking”, to quote Mr. A. Hancock of 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam.

Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
Vaughan that was just on my father’s side, on my mother’s side it’s Celt back to Isle of Skye crofters, and according to the rules I could play for Scotland but according to the skill I’d be chucked out of a nursery school football team
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive:
1
4
And suddenly, in the most unlikeliest of places, appears an article by a GC that cogently and eloquently sets out what happened in Cyprus and how GCs genuinely feel about it. The analysis of the post-67 pro-ENOSIS sentiments (or lack of them) is particularly spot-on, while the analysis of GCs’ resentment towards the TCs for failing to resist the situation is particularly interesting. I’d never thought of it this way, but there’s a lot of truth in what he says, although the pro-Annan plan mass demonstrations of 2002-2003 constitute the big exception to this.
A very well argued piece
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
Sorry for my daftness, Jerry, and even sorrier for my lack of understanding of the real situation. Perhaps you could advise me? Are you saying that Turkey DIDN’T have control of Cyprus in 1974? Is it perhaps that they were prevented or repelled by the Greek and GC forces from pushing further south?
And just what exactly is it/are they that is/are best for Turkey?
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
4
2
Ian, Turkish troops advanced as far as the pre-determined line. The GC EOKA fanatics threatened a guerilla war against them in the north but changed their minds when Turkey threatened to take the whole island. Had Turkey taken control have probably they would have indeed faced the dificult task of suppressing or evicting the entire GC population, somehow I don’t think even the UK and US would have stood for that.
The best thing for Turkey? a base protecting its southern flank from Greece and a population that was pro Turkey.
Constructive or Abusive:
0
0
So the bit about being an Anatolian gypsy isnt true – little
tinker.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
You talking to me, Polly? I’m half Celtic warrior half Anatolian Gypsy so I’m a do as you likie McPikie
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
Although I don’t agree with all written in this article, still it was pleasant to read it as it was kept with clean language and without any verbal insults to anyone.
Jerry,
‘From 1964 on the Turkish army controlled the road between Nicosia and ….’ wrong, there were no Turkish army, it was Turkish Cypriot local force called mucahit and local police.
‘The ceasefire line (or border as some mistakenly call it) was drawn on Turkish maps as early as 1965;’ present ceasefire line was only one of the possible option that would depend on how things would developed.
The first part of operation had only included small part of north area including Kyrenia main town, the sea port and the road to Nicosia. The secon part of operation didn’t started after 3 weeks of long talks and negotiations. Obviously present ceasefire line wasn’t the first priority plan at that time but was the second alternative if there would be no positive outcome from negotiations.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
3
0
Jerry said, “a base protecting its southern flank from Greece” but that would be with incensed GCs able to help Greece to attack from the south while they attack from the north. Plus they wouldn’t have been able to have stopped Greece re-arming GCs plus…
Perhaps to help TCs sounds more convincing?
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
3
0
Polly
“GP Since you consider the island of Cyprus as one, you are trying to violate our human rights by expecting fellow EU citizens
to leave Cyprus. Wishful thinking on your part. Your British
Empire argument doesnt work, after all it was the upper class
British who first went to the colonies, there are also a large
proportion of other northern europeans here too – and – the
Russians are coming……”
Polly, so does that mean as an EU citizen, you abide by EU laws and it’s judgements?
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive:
0
1
Jerry, not sure what I was supposed to learn from that copying and pasting apart from Turkey being worried about the Greeks pre-1960. The Zurich agreement surely helped them to relax, at least until the GCs in 1963 seemed to be turning towards Greece and changing the Cyprus constitution.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
Jerry,
Mucahits were always in the habit of wearing white puttees as part of their formal official uniform. Some divisions also had white helmets. With bit of research anyone can confirm this.
You just saw,only what you wanted to see and believe in.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
3
1
You seem to be reading an awful lot of what you want to see into that half-century-old reference, Jerry.
When do you consider all that war potential analysis lost significance?
I’d suggest well before 1974…
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
3
0
GP
Of course,if there is ever a judgment against me I will obey it.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
Malcolm wrote :
“until the GCs in 1963 seemed to be turning towards Greece and changing the Cyprus constitution.”
The amendments to the 1963 constitution had nothing whatsoever to do with Enosis, which I presume is what you are insinuating by the above quote.
The 13 amendments proposed were to do with internal administrative matters. At the same time Turkey was sending the Grey wolves in Cyprus to facilitate the complete withdrawal of the T/Cs from parliament and to begin the process that led to the division of the island , a long term plan by Turkey known universally as the Attila Plan , ie partition.
Hot debate. What do you think?
2
2
YS, all the pieces of your jigsaw are correct but not the picture you paint. The statement I made was simply that two things were happening that were taken by Turkey as being anti-TC. Your statement that Makarios’ changes were simply “13 amendments… to do with internal administrative matters” defies belief. Your reference to Turkey’s Grey Wolves pre-dates their formation: “the Grey Wolves were founded as the youth organization of the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP) created by Alparslan Türkeş in 1969.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
Malcolm it was in response to your querying why Turkey wanted a presence in Cyprus. In fact Menderes said he wanted Cyprus returned to Turkey disregarding ethnic grounds. Elements on both sides only saw the 1960 agreements as a stepping stone to Takism and Enosis.
Cypriot I have to ask, how many divisions of Mucahits did the TC forces have from a male population of 60,000 – bearing in mind a military division is between 10,000 and 30,000 men
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
Jerry, you say “Menderes said he wanted Cyprus returned to Turkey disregarding ethnic grounds.” To save me reading through your long quote, could you just quote what he actually says and in what context, as I’m finding this whole exercise a little bit like exegesis, Bible interpretation, where according to the Bible there is justification for a killer whale having to be stoned for the death of a keeper. Not without a trial I hope.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
Jerry, your last post and your earlier previous post about 1972 are irrelevant.
In your previous post you had mentioned something in 1972, and I had replied to you about what you saw.
Official Mucahit divisins were never like 10,000 and 30,000 men.
Most of the mucahit divisions were populated with amature reserved doing their national service for 24 months. In july 74, any and every men over 18 had tried to do their best and defend their front line few with very simple guns and mostly with hand made guns and hunting guns, comparing to heavily armed brothers.
In 72, there were only 650 Turkish solgers from Turkey located in a single camp at Gonyeli. This was no hidden thing as there were also 950 (official number suppose to be) solgers from Greece at that time, as it was part of the agreement in 64.
I don’t really understand the point you want to make here but only thing I can say is your atitude is an olive oil reaction in a water bottle.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
3
0
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Unacceptable Behavior. Constructive or Abusive:
0
1
Watch out Malcolm
Mr. Angry will tell you ‘on your bikie Mr. McPikie’
still you could tell him his fortune. How is your lucky
Heather?
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
Jerry, I do believe your interpretation of what has been said is a little bit askew, e.g. “should a change… come into consideration” and then “these can only render it to Turkey” could mean if you try to give Cyprus to the Greeks then this will result in Cyprus ending up in Turkish hands again. NOT we want Cyprus because it belongs to Turkey. ACTION1 —> ACTION2. The second quote says much the same. Both seem to be a response to enosis.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
polly, I see great changes up ahead, fortuitous for those who buy my lucky heather, but full of dread and despair for those who do not respond with glee to Mr Tickle.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
2
0
Well Malcolm we obviously don’t speak/read the same language. These remarks were made to the British Government at a conference in London 1955 when the future of Cyprus and the possibility of British withdrawal was under consideration. My interpretation is “if the UK pulls out we want Cyprus back because it is militarily important to us regardless of who lives there”. Perhaps I have you at a disadvantage since I took the time to read the whole source.
Constructive or Abusive:
0
0
Jerry, perhaps you have the disadvantage of believing that was what was said/meant/acted upon as it was clear in 1960 that whatever was said was not what happened.
Good Contribution. Constructive or Abusive:
1
0
I disagree Malcolm. The disproportionate power granted to the TCs in 1960 was a direct consequence of Turkey’s involvement in the pre 1960 negotiations. The Treaty of Guarantee initially involved multi-lateral action, it was Turkey that insisted that each guarantor would be able to act on its own. And of course the 650 soldiers gave Turkey its first military presence on the island for 80 years. 1960 gave Turkey a legal foothold on Cyprus and the ability (as did Greece) to meddle in the affairs of the Cypriots.
Constructive or Abusive:
0
0
thomas,
the view that it is possible to legitimise the T. invasion has from a legal and justice perpsective been discussed in the first few years after quite exchaustively.
Clearly, everyone but T. disagrees to this. And T. is not short of friends in this world.
If you can ignore the crimes that occured in 74, I truly hope this is not your thinking on how you want other people to treat you (namely kill and rape your mother (in that order) and then take everything you have. Or did you think crimes are legitimised because they are carried out by soldiers (and the people who order them). Ignoring these crimes does you no favours.
And if we were to compare crimes, the GCs are angels in comparison to what happened in 74. Ts. human rights record is testament to that.
In any case, there was no war declared by T. to the RoC. T. considered its option before the invastion and decided legally that was not a good idea.
Also, people tent to forget that the term “guaranteed” does not means you can violoently interveen. You understand that no country can give the right the another country to come and take-over when it sees fit. These were created by the Brits in 60′ as part of their “divide and rule” tactic. They were of course the ones who sparked this civil war fire back in the 50s because it served their purposes. they did this to other places on the globe before gracing us with their departure.
The “guarantee” argument has been in the center of T. propaganda in the first few year after. It is of course completely false.
It looks even T has stop pushing that msg out, it realised it does not sell. This is also the reason why T. “cannot” annex NC.
I think T. has a problem on its hands and wishes it could get rid of it. This is why (we) GC are trying to annoy her as much as we can.
people sometimes call me crazy but I personally dont think T. has no interest to divide cyprus anymore. Dividing (annexing) cyprus even if it was internationnaly accepted, would be problematic for T.
It would create another permanent hotspot which would need to be continually maintaining. Greece would be forced to have significant troops present here and that would be a great disadvantage in case of a was between T and G.
This is the reason why the “trnc” the illegitimate child of T. which seems to be a bit dim witted most of the time.