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Pauline Read on EU property decisions now contradict each other
The European Court of Justice (ECJ) established that Greek Cypriots could pursue their property cases in a British court after having first established their case in a Republic of Cyprus (RoC) court. The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), in their decision concerning the Immovable Property Commission(IPC), established that Greek Cypriots must first approach the IPC (or wait for a solution) and if not satisfied with its decision could then refer their case to the ECHR.
Which is right??? Without a doubt, the ECHR’s ruling takes precedence over the ECJ’s. Does this means that the Orams’ decision is now wrong and should be quashed? How can the Orams’ verdict be sustained when, according to the EU’s current position on solving the Cyprus property problem, Greek Cypriots cannot use individual EU courts to establish trespass and to force individuals to vacate and demolished property.
The law is not just an ass, it’s an ass with a head at each end pulling in different directions.
number of views: 2060
If the EU is such an two headed ass, how come they also seem to be
speaking out of the non existent a*se. Talk about the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.
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The ECJ didn’t rule that Greek Cypriots should pursue their claims in a British court, they simply ruled that a judgement made in one member state is enforceable in another. Basically the article is a load of donkey doo and dominic freeman is an ass
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Simon, I believe what Dominic may be saying is that the Orams will be the only person in their situation with a British court judgement stating they are trespassers and that they should vacate and demolish. What the two bodies have PRODUCED are two contradictory ways of solving the Cyprus property issue and the ECHR’s is the EU’s prescribed way. It’s about what RESULTS from these two EU bodies’ decisions. Just like the result of your lack of comprehension is an weak insult.
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Simon, you’re oversimplifying the ECJ judgement. If you read the summary here – http://conflictoflaws.net/2009/ecj-judgment-apostolides – you’ll find that the ECJ was not just ruling on whether judgements in all EU member states could be applied in all others. They ruled on whether the RoC could rule on what was happening in the TRNC and found that it could. The ECHR judged that it couldn’t.
“1. The suspension of the application of the acquis communautaire in those areas of the Republic of Cyprus in which the Government of that Member State does not exercise effective control, provided for by Article 1(1) of Protocol No 10 on Cyprus to the Act concerning the conditions of accession [to the European Union] of the Czech Republic, the Republic of Estonia, the Republic of Cyprus, the Republic of Latvia, the Republic of Lithuania, the Republic of Hungary, the Republic of Malta, the Republic of Poland, the Republic of Slovenia and the Slovak Republic and the adjustments to the Treaties on which the European Union is founded, does not preclude the application of Council Regulation (EC) No 44/2001 of 22 December 2000 on jurisdiction and the recognition and enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters to a judgment which is given by a Cypriot court sitting in the area of the island effectively controlled by the Cypriot Government, but concerns land situated in areas not so controlled.”
Dominic: “EU property decisions now contradict each other”
It simply means that you’re a confused puppy because you haven’t understood what the ECHR was talking about the other day. Here’s a hint…
Case #1: Property owner Vs Trespasser (individual)
Trespasser pays compensation and ownership is retained by the owner.
Case #2: Property owners Vs Turkey (country)
Turkey pays compensation through the “IPC” and ownership is lost.
Result: Smart people sue the trespasser in the RoC courts and keep the property.
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Oh GR, do behave, I just heard a ripping sound, I do believe it was my sides splitting. Where do you get these jokes from? Get a fridge magnet made with this on it.
The RoC can no longer try property cases involving GC property in the north, that’s now the IPC’s job.
Dominic, you really shouldn’t wind GR up. When he discovers that, thanks to the Oram’s case, unlike GCs , TCs CAN sue for trespass in the RoC courts because that’s where their land is, then he’ll have a fit.
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Dominic: “The RoC can no longer try property cases involving GC property in the north, that’s now the IPC’s job.”
I think you misunderstand what the ECHR is all about! It does NOT have the power to tell RoC courts what they can or cannot try! That is not what the ECHR is all about so where did you get that from?
The ECHR ruling relates to refugees having a gripe that the Turkish military is obstructing them from accessing their properties, but Apostolides has avoided getting the CyProb involved and simply complained…
“Why is this guy trespassing on my property?”
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Confused – you will be. Involve the EU and it all becomes clear
……….as mud.
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There is some misunderstanding here about the two Courts.
The ECJ is the highest Court of the EU.
The ECHR is the Court established under the European Convention on Human Rights, a convention established and signed by the 47 members of the Council of Europe, a body separate from the EU
So the ECHR does not have primacy over the ECJ. However, it is a pity that the ECHR ruling did not come before the ECJ ruling. There is little doubt that the ECJ would have taken into consideration the ECHR ruling had it been available at the time. But it might not have changed their view.
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GR, “I think you misunderstand what the ECHR is all about! It does NOT have the power to tell RoC courts what they can or cannot try!”
So what you’re saying is that the RoC will carry on trying property cases and then applying them to the relevant EU countries including those 1600 GC applicants to the ECHR.
Colin, so the fact that an ECJ ruling violates the Orams’ Human Rights, according to the ECHR, will be irrelevant?
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Colin you are right,the ECJ ruling takes precedence over the ECHR ruling. What is at stake here is the ability to use the ECHR ruling to overturn the ECJ ruling. One such example of an ECJ ruling being overturned was when the UK High Court overturned an ECJ trade mark ruling.
http://www.managingip.com/Article/1326702/UK-court-overturns-ECJ-trade-mark-ruling.html
The fact that the ECJ can overrule ECHR rulings causes conflict with human rights and this gives hope to challenge rulings made by fallible/corruptible ECJ judges.
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Neo, you have to be either Greek or GC, because you have included the mandatory insults with your post. It’s a pity you guys seem unable to discuss or debate any issue without insult, abuse or disparagement.
But when you write things like “So how you think that the “ECHR’s ruling takes precedence over the ECJ’s” is beyond me.”, this really is beyond me, too. My reading of Dominic’s post said exactly the opposite – “Colin you are right,the ECJ ruling takes precedence over the ECHR ruling.”
Speaking of advertising ignorance…
Hot debate. What do you think?
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The fact remains that a decision by the RoC courts can be enforced in all EU member nations.
Trespass upon my property and I can take you to court .Since the only sovereign power over the whole of Cyprus is the RoC , the courts will be those that are recognized as the legal judiciary of the RoC.
Those that have jumped to conclusions concerning the ECHR ought to understand the different roles of the EU and the ECHR , RELATED BUT DIFFERENT !
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Ian, hallo, I was commenting on the original “article”, and had not seen Colin’s response to it, and Freeman’s response to his response.
The most wearisome aspect of this website is all the time Brits, presumably, comment on the ethnic origin of respondents.
Eg: “You have a problem with properties bought on the cheap by unscrupulous foreigners, so you must be Greek or GC.”
How pathetic.
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Neo, you said that you “had not seen Colin’s response to it, and Freeman’s response to his response.”! Surprising, given that his post was directly above yours, and had to be staring you in the face as you were typing that you hadn’t seen it!
Presumably, as you’ve used inverted commas, this is a quotation…“You have a problem with properties bought on the cheap by unscrupulous foreigners, so you must be Greek or GC.”, and I’d be fascinated to see the link to it. Or is it in fact something you penned yourself? That would be my guess, based on the unscupulous use of emotive prose (e.g. cheap…unscrupulous foreigners), but its underlying connotation is correct.
Incidentally, you got my ethnic origin wrong, too.
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One question: why are the comments initially hidden? They are the most interesting aspect of this website, even if it means having to endure the clear-cut, bullying, ganging up tactics employed by some who post here. Namely, there is a small group of like-minded people (probably retired) who have nothing better to do but support each other’s views because they belong to the same camp. But whether their positions are correct, and simple morality such as “thou shalt not steal”, is totally irrelevant to them.
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Hi Neo, I hate that ganging up attitude but as editor I needed a way of moderating 1000s comments without doing it personally (I’m not retired) and without deleting anything but excessively abusive comments. The current system is similar to the Cyprus Mail system but without the “report abuse” button.
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Hey Neo, if you really want to catch “a (not so) small group of like-minded people (probably retired) who have nothing better to do but support each other’s views because they belong to the same camp”, check out the other Cyprus forum. Their views also come complete with the obligatory insults and obscenities.
You’re as good with spin as Jerry…”simple morality such as “thou shalt not steal”, is totally irrelevant to them.” …”thou shalt not steal” is certainly simple morality, mate, but your attempt to tie that in with, I’m presuming, our purchases of property in the TRNC really is pathetic.
Tell me you have absolutely no family or friends who are Greek or GC…
Hot debate. What do you think?
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When are you cheapskates going to understand that your presence as well as your support of the continued occupation of the northern parts of Cyprus is immensely detested by over 600 thousand Cypriots.
Your perpetual peddling of the myth that somehow Turkey had to invade in order to put a stop to a massacre that was taking place is nauseating .
Many times I challenged some of you to provide evidence of the nonsense that you continually repeat to no avail.
You are not liked by even one single individual , and don’t go on about racism , it has nothing whatsoever to do with race , just with cheapskates enemies of the island of Cyprus.
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Many times I challenged some of you to provide evidence of the nonsense that you continually repeat to no avail.
yiannis savvides.
Many people have given you factual evidence, which you refuse to accept out of hand. So why should we bother to try to educate you when it is much more fun winding you up.
Patientia est a donum superum
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Btw Malcolm, you should inform your readers that the bogus “ratings” vote underneath each post is only available to those people you choose!
I’ll bet you feel a tad like God don’t you?
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G&R wrote, “Btw Malcolm, you should inform your readers that the bogus “ratings” vote underneath each post is only available to those people you choose! ”
Nice theory but WordPress Comment Rating has an inbuilt feature for the comments of those who author an article not to be rated and therefore reduced to a link. That’s the reason I repeated my comment under an article I had authored, my comment to Neo had been rated “disliked”.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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G+R You are wrong so I gave you a tick to make you feel
better and heres a kiss xx too. I think Malcolm is more
Ma(jest)ic than Godlike.
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Btw, G+R, why do you feel it necessary to keep changing your pseudonyms?
Your identity is immediately available to those who recognise your particularly bilious style of insults…
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Ian Edwards: “Btw, G+R, why do you feel it necessary to keep changing your pseudonyms?”
It’s the only way to trick his software into making an instant post because the pseudo-God often blocks my say and deprives me from voting in ratings, so those of you that have seemingly been making “popular” posts are in fact being propped up selectively… and yes I know, I’m bursting your popularity bubble but you did ask!
The Cyprus Forum is still the ONLY forum where EVERYONE enjoys unbiased freedom of speech on a professional platform where serious debate can take place; a credit to its admin…
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That’s the beauty of FREEDOM OF SPEECH…
We have silly threads, boring threads, serious threads, sexual threads, and anything else you can imagine. One thing that’s for sure…
NOBODY IS EVER DEPRIVED OF THEIR FREEDOM OF SPEECH OR VOTE IN POLLS!
It’s a new concept to you Malcolm, but in time you too will learn to appreciate it if you give it a chance and earn that respect…
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Get Real, why do you even USE a psuedonym? Why do you feel it necessary to hide your Real identity?
Btw, the last paragraph in your last post is a perfect example of why it is simply a waste of time bothering to engage rational debate. “unbiassed freedom of speech…professional platform…serious debate”, it would be laughable were it not so sad. You and your ilk have convinced yourselves over the past 35 years that black is really white, that Turkey is responsible for all the Cyprus troubles, and that the GCs are poor, innocent and unloved.
Get real.
unbiased freedom of speech on a professional platform where serious debate
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GR, get a grip!!!
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Ian Edwards: “Get Real, why do you even USE a psuedonym? Why do you feel it necessary to hide your Real identity?”
Had I used an alias like “Brian Childs” would you have been convinced that it’s my real name?
Welcome to the world of online perception where someone who goes by the alias of “Ian Edwards” likes to believe that he has given his identity away!
When you are ready to REALLY give your identity away “Ian Edwards” fill in the blanks below …
Name : Ian Edwards
Address : ____________
Tel : ____________
Passport # : ____________
ID # : ____________
DOB : ____________
Atta boy!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I find it very pleasing that there is light at the end of the tu nnel.It is well past time that only one side has an opinion that is taken into consideration.I have had a property in the north of the Island for five years.I have never been approached by anybody, and quite frankly do not expect to be.If somebody came to my house and could show me their title deeds, also proving that there is no out standing bank loan against the proprty, I would be prepared to sit down and talk to them, provided they bought all the beer!(could be a veeeery expensive day for them.)
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Thanks Edwards for coming out of the closet and admitting you and your small group of merry men (and women} are property “owners” in the north.
So you have a vested interest, whereas I do not have claims to any property in the territory in question, which is perhaps why I can take a more high-minded view of “simple morality” such as “thou shalt not steal”.
Good to also see that for lack of arguments, you’re again playing the ethnic card, writing: “Tell me you have absolutely no family or friends who are Greek or GC”.
But I don’t feel obliged to tell anything to someone who is a propagandist property thief, and an apparent racist, except: REPENT!
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Get Real
What an out and out idiot you are – you really should read the
posts properly. We all know who and what you are.
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Neo, I imagine that according to you anyone who actually ventures into the north can no longer take a “high-minded” view. This would be because they have committed the crime of trespass just by walking on the streets of the TRNC, something you of course have never done. Your “simple morality” and unforgiving nature are contradictory. How can property be stolen? No court in the universe has found a single “carpet-bagger” guilty of land theft. In fact I believe that future CRIMINAL/CIVIL cases against them will end. All occupiers, both north and south, will be treated equally. GC refugees treated in the same way foreign buyers are treated. No wonder Jerry wrote on Cyprus Forum:
“This means that the carpetbaggers and illegal immigrants have little or no fear of losing “their property”. Turkey’s waiting game has paid off… I believe that, unfettered by the realistic threat of litigation and with Turkey picking up the tab, the first noticeable effect of this judgment will be increased activity and prices of the sale of our property in the north… If I were a few years younger I’d join “EOKA C” tomorrow.”
What did they used to say in my day, “scratch a liberal and you’ll find a fascist.”
Neo, I bet you’re beginning to get a liking for the comment section of North Cyprus Free Press, aren’t you.
Get Real, your moronic attempt to turn my question back on me is pathetic. If you don’t want to answer my question, then don’t. But please stop your peurile device of apportioning belief to others, then arguing as though it were correct. Your second sentence, about Brian Childs, is of course pure non-sequitur. This is simply another evasive device.
This is, in fact, my real name, but whether you believe me or not is not worth, to me, two pinches of doggie doo. Unlike you and Neo, I don’t hide behind an alias, and have never been near a closet.
Neo, I’m sure somewhere in your travels you’ve picked up the point that only using a person’s last name is a deliberate insult. I noticed that you did the same thing to Dominic, so clearly it’s a deliberate ploy to attempt to denigrate your opponent, and thus hopefully render his argument less convincing. This is a form of argumentum ad hominem, and purely fallacious.
Someone with your obvious attitude and bias can never legitimately take a higher-minded view of anything.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Dominic, you are a true idiot. Why do you think “EOKA C” was expressed in inverted commas.
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Oh Jerry, could it be in inverted commas because no such terrorist organisation has YET been formed and that what you were expressing was a wish that such an organisation had been formed. Or perhaps you have an alternative explanation, e.g. you like wishing you were young enough to join non-existent organisations or perhaps it was an idiotic, pointless phrase that your dog typed while you were making cocoa?
Why am I been sarcastic to you? It’s because of the murders associated with the EOKA A group, particularly in the case of innocent women and children. Perhaps you thought your fellow Cyprus Forum members would join you in that sentiment but happily they didn’t? Oh, by the way, before you or others get on their high horses, war turns some people into murderers on both sides.
The Brits who unwisely “invested” in the occupied part of Cyprus , and there is no doubt now that it is occupied , need our sympathy for their careless and rather stupid if I may say so action. Here is a part of the world , known by all and sundry that it is occupied by Turkey , what do these plonkers do !! Invest !!
What a pitiful array of old codgers !
ps. Anyone with any evidence yet of the ….massacre that Turkey invaded to put a stop to ??
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Yiannis
You sound almost, I did say almost, as if you might have some
sympathy for the poor old codgers – have you had an empathy
implant? Can you find an alternative word for plonker, you have
rather overused it.
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Dominic, from idiot to pompous, self-righteous ignoramous. Your pen is out of control. You would have a valid point if only the “C” was thus expressed.
My post, “The IPC has, in effect, said that a carpetbagger who bought a holiday property in the north a few months ago has a greater right to it than a GC whose family may have owned it for centuries – it’s a f……g scandal.” is much more relevant to the subject but no doubt you agree with the notion – except the last few words of course.
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YS, in the light of the EHCR findings do you still think that those who invested over the last few months are stupid investors? The Orams’ result drove down prices and the ECHR is now beginning to drive them back up. I know you have a different view to the current legal view that occupiers of properties in the south now have a right to keep a TC’s property and that the TC should accept compensation instead of being able to force the GC out of their home, and the same in the north. But you have to admit that all the non-EU speculators, I believe you call them “carpetbaggers” after the investors who benefited from the Abbey demutualisation, are out to make a tidy profit.
Your strange question about proof that something was prevented is impossible to answer. Are you saying that you want proof that TCs were killed between particular dates? The word massacre is difficult to define, e.g. “family massacred” to mean everyone. Do you have a number in mind? Do you want the findings of a non-TRNC court which has considered witness statements and forensic evidence and convicted a named killer? Many victims are still buried out there somewhere. Perhaps you would take a credible threat to massacre in the same light as a threat to kill, where someone responds to the threat to prevent it? I’m not sure what you want as proof, YS.
Jerry, I’m sorry to interrupt your venom and bring you back to the “EOKA C” riddle, but what did you mean by referring to an organisation dedicated to terror? I know you would like to pretend I do not have a relevant point, and I may not have, but why wish for terrorism, because that is how it appears? Perhaps your EOKA is not this EOKA
“EOKA (Εθνική Οργάνωσις Κυπρίων Αγωνιστών, Ethniki Organosis Kyprion Agoniston (Greek for National Organisation of Cypriot Fighters)) but sometimes expanded as Ethnikí Orgánosis Kipriakoú Agónos (Greek for National Organisation of Cypriot Struggle)[2] was a Greek Cypriot nationalist military resistance[3][4] organisation that fought for the end of British rule of the island, for self-determination and for union with Greece (enosis).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOKA
Au contraire, my feisty Freeman, I have traversed the northern streets and roads of our beloved country many times, but for good reasons. To visit Turkish Cypriot friends, to see the island’s historical sites, or even just to pick up a kebab. Ie. not for the reasons that Edwards and many other readers of this website have found themselves in this area – to pick up houses or villas on the cheap that effectivly constitute stolen property. And shame on them for having the gall to throw stones while living in glass houses. It’s still not too late for them to REPENT and LEAVE. And an apology to the Cypriot people and especially the refugees from all communities while they are making their way out wouldn’t go amiss either.
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Oh Neo, why don’t we take the TCs with us, I believe that’s what Neo-N’s want isn’t it? Lovely phrase, having to write, “effectivly constitute stolen property” because the ECHR ruling makes the word “legally” inappropriate. ‘Tis a weary web we weave.
Ian, I do believe that is why Yiannis has not come to Jerry’s rescue.
No Freeman, leave the TCs out of this. Don’t pretend that unscrupulous, property-thief foreigners such as yourself are genuine supporters of their cause.
By the way, is the two-headed ass illustration accompanying this “article” a self-portrait?
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Anyway Freeman, at least your “article”, despite the ignorance it betrayed, provoked another lively debate. And hopefully you have now learnt something new, such as the distinction betwen the EU and the Council of Europe. Maybe one day, you will also be able to distinguish between illegally-acquired property bought on the cheap by amoral gold diggers, and a legitimate transaction at a fair price conducted between honest people.
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Neo wrote, “leave the TCs out of it.” Is that because you believe selling “stolen goods” is perfectly acceptable and a “legitimate transaction?” I’m not sure how your mind works on this. Neo your “all Cypriots together” cronyism, if you don’t mind me pointing this out, seem to be in violation of the very human rights the ECHR was upholding. Thank goodness this “recognised only by GCs” bias was ignored by the EU (and the Council of Europe) recognised ECHR.
Do feel free to lecture me on EU law, I personally am always willing to learn and change my position in the light of new information or persuasive logic. The ECHR is at an interesting cross roads, I believe.
I’m not sure what precise TC cause you are referring to and I don’t know what you look like so I wouldn’t know if it was a portrait of your good self.
Oh dear – too much testosterone for me I’m off for to have my tea.
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Ian Edwards,
You must be very daft to assume that by calling yourself “Ian Edwards” you were “brave” enough to give your identity away while someone called the “Pied Piper” has not!
As I said… when you’re really ready to give your identity away just fill in the blanks and we’ll call you “brave”, otherwise shut it and stick to the issues in the threads!
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Get Real, you seem to have trouble with the language too. You clearly are capable only of evasion and irrelevance.
I couldn’t give a bugger about “giving my identity away”, as I’m not attempting to prove a thing. My point simply is, once again, that I’m not hiding behind an alias, as you are. The difference between the Pied Piper and Ian Edwards is simply that one is genuine and one is not. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
Your last paragraph, yet again, is peurile nonsense, so typical of the general GC mentality. When faced with a question you can’t or don’t want to answer, evade it and make an insulting accusation.
Easy to do from behind the anonymity of an alias. Very brave.
But let me advise you of one thing you obviously haven’t yet learned – you don’t get the right to tell anyone to “shut it” from a distance. You only do that with any honour face to face. Then you accept whatever consequences result.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Let me make one thing abundantly clear, I have stated on many occasions that I consider the struggle by EOKA of 1955-1959 as a noble one and one of liberation from British rule . No nation should accept foreign occupation indefinitely and the island of Cyprus was categorically and sternly told that independence was out of the question , the then incompetent government , the same one involved in the Suez debacle in 1957, made it clear that independence was out of the question.
I supported and still do the struggle against British occupation.
With hindsight the goal aimed by the struggle , that of ENOSIS was wrong. I understand fully the reasons as to why ENOSIS was the ultimate goal , Cyprus had never been independent , before the British we had the Ottomans , who invaded Cyprus in 1571 , the Cypriot people through their language and religion associated with Greece and considered themselves as an extension of the Hellenic world.
My own opinion is that the struggle should have had as the ultimate goal the independence of Cyprus and should have embraced the T/Cs who were then considered as a mere minority and one whose wishes should not be considered given that the 82 % of the people considered themselves to be G/Cs.
There was nothing untoward about the overwhelming majority wanting to chart their own destiny , majorities in every single nation on earth have been doing so since the beginning.
Britain , although determined that Cyprus should NEVER be abandoned , her strategic position , more so since the Suez crisis , was far too important for Britain’s interests. Nothing wrong with this either , most super powers , as Britain was then , had to look after their strategic interests above all else.
Following the British drafted constitution , signed in Zurich in 1959 , many G/Cs felt that they had not achieved what the struggle of 4 years had as its aim which was Enosis with Greece which they perceived to be their motherland , wrongly in my opinion.
I firmly believe that the new constitution should have been given a reasonable time , running into a decade at least , before amendments were deemed necessary in order that functionality of the governmental departments became possible .
EOKA B , irrespective whether the participants were previously EOKA members or not , was anathema for the Cypriot people , since their ultimate aim was not conducive in creating an atmosphere of compatibility and co existence with our T/C compatriots who themselves had suffered as a result of the inter communal conflict. Contrary to what many of you Brits think , we did live peacefuly together , grew up together shared a common culture and social needs.
I , personally, spent two years of my early life in the then Limassol orphanage sharing a dormitory with both G/C and T/C kids , that was from 1953 to 1955 , no animosity existed and although the orphanage was managed mostly by G/Cs , all children were treated equally with love and care.
My early interactions with T/C children helped in cementing a barrier against a phobia and hate against my brothers and sisters.
The sad events that took place from 1963 onwards are a stain on the Cypriot people since both communities are equally to blame for fostering and promoting hatred against each other , the extremists were solely responsible , the decent Cypriot people suffered the consequences some emerging stronger and some joining the forces of evil , the extremists and the hate merchants.
Many of my G/C compatriots vehemently disagree with my views and many of my T/C compatriots have come to see me as a genuine true Cypriot who does not in any way differentiate between G/Cs , T/Cs , Armenians etc .
Why is it then that I so strongly and passionately oppose the views expressed by I call the Cheapskates. Simple !
You support the continuation of hatred amongst my people , you support the propaganda that infers that my people can not live together , you support the division of my island and you do because you have chosen to purchase cheap property in a part of my country where all the world considers to be under Turkish occupation.
Do you know that the T/Cs are considered by mainland Turks as nothing more than donkeys , in other words they do not like the T/Cs , dont kid yourselves that they are the same people , they are not because the T/Cs are indigenous to Cyprus the mainland Turks are not .
On the Cyprus forum over many years I have come to be known as MILTIADES , the one that challenges all extremists , the one who has forged great friendships with many Cypriots , the one who exposed one of the propagandists heroes a certain Phanos Drousiotis , one who had the audacity to steal fund destined for the T/C cancer foundation , Tulip Cancer .
I challenged each and every anti Cyprus Unification “postees” and you the Brits living in the occupied part of Cyprus are deadly opposed to the unification of Cyprus.
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Dominic writes in the lead article….. “Which is right??? Without a doubt, the ECHR’s ruling takes precedence over the ECJ’s. Does this means that the Orams’ decision is now wrong and should be quashed?” ……
Can also say that the ECHR inadmissibility ruling changes nothing established by the ECJ/GB Appeal Court rulings of the past few months in the matter of Mr Apostolides v The Os.
In justification….two things….firstly, worth spending a little time considering an increasingly widely used phrase in EU jurisprudence… “the free movement of judgments”…. and it may help to think of this innocent little phrase in the same way as terms such as “free movement of goods and services” or the … “free movement of people”…. within an increasingly borderless EU. So it remains the case that an Order from the Courts of the Republic remains enforceable, free to reach out anywhere in the EU, as long as it does not conflict with “public policy” in the member state where enforcement is sought..
Oh…and secondly… those that get hopes up that GB public policy towards CY has somehow changed in the past few days don’t really understand what is meant by “public policy”. GB’s CY policy hasn’t changed cos GB public policy isn’t determined by a chamber of the ECHR. GB public policy is summarised by the documents it’s put its signature to over many years, so it remains based on such things as the Treaty of Guarantee, The Independence Treaty, and the UN Resolutions that we are all familiar with, so that GB public policy remains…. “respect for the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic” .
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Bill, wouldn’t it be great if things were as easy as that. The ECJ is the highest court and yet it’s judgements have been overturned, e.g. http://www.managingip.com/Article/1326702/UK-court-overturns-ECJ-trade-mark-ruling.html
In the end it is the application of law that counts and it would be interesting to see if the Orams case really is as dead as some say it is.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Put a sock in it, Yiannis, and go get a life.
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The Council of Europe, which set up the ECHR, has 47 member states and not the 147 that Troodo claims.
Reh Malcolm – it isn’t as easy as saying the ECJ is the highest court, and that in the case you refer to its decisions have been overturned. The word “overturned’ gives a misleading view.
The ECJ gives expert opinions on matters of EU law in cases that are referred to it by national courts. It remains up to the national courts to interpret the ECJ’s opinions and it further remains the fact that the national courts will make the final decision based on how the ECJ’s advice/expert opinion sits with national laws and the facts of the case.
As an illustration remember we all saw this interpretation procedure at work in the Mr A v The O’s case, where counsel for the O’s argued before the GB Appeal Court, that the ECJ hadn’t sufficiently considered matters of GB public policy. So that in this case the GB Court remained the higher, ultimate authority cos the GB court made the ultimate interpretation, the ultimate judgment, the final and higher say.
Now going back to basics (again), what we must really consider (again) is the relationship between the EU/ECJ and the ECHR to which would say, again, the EU as as a collective whole hasn’t signed the Euro Convention on Human Rights (yet) although each of the member states has. So the alleged contradiction in the OP and in the dreams of some others here doesn’t exist, it ain’t there.
In any event there should be a clear to all difference between civil actions involving individuals (or private organisations) which are and always will be matters for and the sole preserve of national courts (within, if applicable. the framework of free movement of judgments) and…. human rights actions brought by individuals (or nations) against nations, the preserve of the ECHR.
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Bill, I’ve tried to read both your recent posts here, and I’m afraid my poor brain is suffering from a bit of excess obfuscation, so pardon me if I opine that you are or were a lawyer. Your analysis and commentary seems excessively dithering to me.
Would you be able to put your conclusions in some simple, easy (for me) to understand phrasing that outlines, clearly, whether you think the recent decision by the ECHR is a good thing, or a bad thing, for the TRNC? (Or for the GCs, if that is your preferred focus.)
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Hi Ian, pleased to be able to tell you that make a living by honest graft, so am not a lawyer.
As to the “good thing/bad thing”, prefer to reserve judgment. Time will tell… but as you ask and at the risk of being accused of further “dithering”, and as it stands, it’s a hindrance for the cause of some 1500 people trying to get their human/property rights respected but as we all know there’s more than one way to skin a cat and we’ll prob start to see a practical response, through the courts of the Republic, from lawyers for some of the claimants over the course of the next few months.
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Absolutely nothing to do with the thread but guaranteed to get
Yiannis spitting feathers – Izzet is asking for donations to
keep Cyprus 44 afloat. ooh er you are not going follow suit
are you Malcolm?
Predicted words
]cheapskates
plonkers
old codgers
any more suggestions for Yiannis??
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Troodo , many thanks for nothing !!! You don’t by any stretch of the imagination THINK that I or anyone else was not capable of googling all details concerning the ECHR .
I’m certain that the bid about the RoC being the sole sovereign entity has not escaped your attention , or that the “TRNC” is not recognized!!
May I also bring to your attention that the ECHR has in way or form conferred any legitimacy to the “trnc” .
Faced with 1500 cases likely to have risen to many thousands , the decision
was indeed one of political expediency , not certain about legalities , we let the experts decide on that.
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Dominique , EOKA , as the description given below from the same source that you provided , is one of a resistance organization not a terrorist one.
wikipedia :
Not to be confused with EOKA B.
EOKA
Participant in Cypriot struggle for Independence
EOKA.jpg
Active 1955–1959
Leaders George Grivas
Headquarters Cyprus
Strength 1,250 [1]
Opponents British Empire,
Turkish Resistance Organisation
EOKA (Εθνική Οργάνωσις Κυπρίων Αγωνιστών, Ethniki Organosis Kyprion Agoniston (Greek for National Organisation of Cypriot Fighters)) but sometimes expanded as Ethnikí Orgánosis Kipriakoú Agónos (Greek for National Organisation of Cypriot Struggle)[2] was a Greek Cypriot nationalist military resistance[3][4] organisation that fought for the end of British rule of the island, for self-determination and for union with Greece (enosis).
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yiannis savvides
Problem is you people only retain the bits that suit you. Nothing new on the recognition of the TRNC, we will have to wait a little longer, but some of the other bits were quite interesting don’t you think.
For the first time a reasonably unbiased court has made a fair and honest judgement on the activities of the GC’s. I hope this is the first step towards an honest and just settlement, and don’t forget the recognition, as they mentioned, of the rights of present occupiers. Oh, and was there not something about GC’s not benefitting from improvements, such as a villa or a business, and something else about double-dipping? On the whole not too bad.
Patientia est a donum superum
Hot debate. What do you think?
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And Polly, why shouldn’t Malcolm follow suit? Do you not get entertainment on this site? From all your postings it would seem so. I certainly do, and I’d be happy to pay a small premium to enter the site, much like what is happening on Cyprus44.
Comments, Malcolm?
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yiannis savvides
Have you ever lived on this so called property of yours? If not, or for less than two years, it will effect your compensation. Always assuming the copy of your deeds stands up to scrutiny of course.
Patientia est a donum superum
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Ian mate, given a choice between GC and TC, The Republic or Tnucland … and you can throw GB or any other scabby nation-state or tribe in to it if you wish ….. will always, always come down in favour of the Rights of Man/Woman and couldn’t give a tiss if they’re a CY man/woman, a tissy man/woman, a grissy, black, yellow, green etc
Is all clear to you mate/matess? Plain speaking in simple English and Dither-free enough for you?
(Apologies to Malcolm if the above is a bit too forthright in language)
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Thanks Yiannis,
I agree with you about C44 being a waste of space, but really it is a glorified magazine on which to swap recipes, details of
pubs/eateries and sell unwanted items, i wouldnt pay for that.
With regard to your kind offer, most of my friends have pools,
jacuzzis and hot tubs so I regretfully decline your offer and
I would never knowingly get into a vehicle with a drunk driver,
lost a very much loved member of my family that way.
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Have they demolished the Orams villa yet?
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Trood , dont be a plonker , there is nothing ” so called ” about my property , the “so called ” is the pseudo state !
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Polly , I have just given you the thumbs up!!
The comment on a drunk driver was as you obviously knew , a joke !
The same joke as the one about the …gotchas .. issued by the “trnc”
What was not a joke however is my properly registered abode , legally recognized the world over as my exclusive property unlike your friends villas built on stolen land.
Have a nice day and dont test that cell unnecessarily now !!!
ps.Sorry for your loss ..
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Ian , at least 6ms has a fully developed brain , unlike most old codgers in the pseudo state in possession of a fully dilabitated one cell brain and a worthless gotcha !! !!
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Yiannis, most of your posts are full of nonsense, but this one really takes the cake.
What on earth is “dilabitated”?
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there is nothing ” so called ” about my property ,
yiannis savvides
Ok. I will have to take your word on that. But you will still have to take compensation rather than return, unless it is a barren field, and you can not profit from any improvements or interfere with the present occupier. Somewhat takes the fun out of it for you and will take a good few years. But look on the bright side, it will only cost you 100 whatevers.
Patientia est a donum superum
Hot debate. What do you think?
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This thread has gone on a bit now, when you’re arguing with a fool, make sure he isn’t doing the same thing.
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It was too easy to find the fool.
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Yiannis Please take into account some of my friends have
pre 74 title so are totally legal even on your side of the
divide. I did note however that you are a nice person and
did not mock at my loss at the hands of a drunk driver,
for that I thank you.
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Ian I really dont think Malcolm will follow suit, but, if he
did, then no, I wouldnt pay. End of discussion.
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Ian , sorry mate that should have read …de..capitated !!
Arent you a ..clever plonker to have spotted that !!Good on you boy !
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Polly , I too have a friend , a Scot , who purchased before 1974 , legally and properly . Nothing wrong with that .My concern and my anger is directed at those who knowingly “invested” in a part of Cyprus that even monkeys know its under the occupation of Turkey. Make no mistake , many conquerors had their days in Cyprus and so will Turkey. We are a stubborn lot and will not capitulate to the demands of a third world country , a nation that still tolerates honour killings , a nation that is deliberating whether their women should or should not wear bloody head scarfs .
Can I just ask you what gave you the idea that I would rejoice at the demise of a family member of yours or anyone else’s for that matter.
I oppose the occupation of a part of my country but would never wish harm on the innocent people of Turkey .
I oppose , vehemently the actions of Brits who through plain stupidity chose to “invest ” in the occupied north while at the same time joining forces with the occupier.
To those Brits I say , go to hell and clear off Cyprus you do not deserve to be here you cheapskates !
I do hope I have ..explained my self , rather eloquently wouldn’t you say !
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Hi Yiannis,
I am off tomorrow to check out the bits of your TRNC ancestral lands that I am holding in trust for you.
You can be sure that they will be kept in good order. Also checking out some ancestral lands in Paphos which will also be kept in good order. I want to put your mind at rest that you can trust me to take good care of the properties that you think you own now for the foreseeable future so just sit back and relax, let me take the strain
Don’t suppose you would care to meet up for a beer?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Reidi, Any one ever tell you that you are as thick as two ..Plonkers of wood.Go take a run and jump you English barbie !!!
So , you English little peasant you want to meet me for a beer do you !! You are not man enough mate , the chances are you are a poof trying to pick me up!!
When do we meet then ?
What an English arsehole !!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Yiannis
On occasion your rhetoric is very nasty and therefore how can I
know what your reaction will be on any subject?
Yes you can be eloquent when you choose to be, on other occasions
you are down right dogmatic.
Weekend again already – enjoy your Sunday lunch and claret.
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Polly when dealing with feeble-mindedness , when I feel that my intelligence is insulted with mockery and ignominious pub talk by utterly unrefined British or …Australian individuals who luxuriate in ridiculing the quandary of the dispossessed thousands then I switch on to the rhetorical mode best understood by these …Plonkers !
Hope I have , in a way , made my self clear .
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