Wishful thinking or outright deception?
For some time I have been wondering about the seemingly good news that keeps coming out of Northern Cyprus. Invitations to meet Spanish government officials in Spain; an invitation to a meeting with Hilary Clinton in Washington on 30th March; Direct Trade to the TRNC being introduced by the EU Parliament.
The interesting bit about the Clinton visit [1] released by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Public Relations Office was the addendum, “he has not decided whether to attend or not.” Perhaps I’ve lost the plot a little and it is quite normal for Talat to reject meetings with people like Clinton. The world is probably knocking at his door at the moment and he has far too many invitations to deal with.
Since the release of this information there has been much speculation on many of the bulletin boards relating to North Cyprus, but nothing anywhere else. My email to the State Department in Washington was answered very non-committally with a “General response” email, quote:
” Recently you requested personal assistance from our on-line support center. Below is a summary of your request and our response. If this issue is not resolved to your satisfaction, you may reopen it within the next 7 days.
Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.
Subject: Proposed Meeting with the President of TRNC
Discussion Thread:
Response (Support Agent) – 03/17/2010 11:06 AM
Thank you for your message to Secretary Clinton sharing your thoughts and concerns. We value your opinion and will take it — and the views of all Americans — into consideration.
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Question Reference #100308-000040
Category Level 1: U.S. Foreign Policy
Category Level 2: Middle East
Date Created: 03/08/2010 05:25 AM
Very general. Neither confirming a meeting nor denying an invitation or saying anything at all.
OK. I’m not satisfied, so I dig deeper. The website of Hilary Clinton’s diary appointments for the 30th March 2010 shows that she is in Canada for a G8 Meeting. This has been scheduled for months. G8 Summits don’t just happen out of the blue. So, where does this leave the invitation story? An email to the TRNC Ministry of Foreign Affairs Public Relations Office has gone as yet unanswered. (Why am I not surprised?)
On top of this was the invitation to meet Spanish government officials [2], little was made of that in the press. It was as if it never happened. Then finally there is the matter 0f Direct Trade:
“DIRECT TRADE REGULATION AGAIN ON THE AGENDA OF THE EU
The European Union has launched a new initiative to re-table the EU Direct trade regulation for the TRNC following the endorsement of the Lisbon treaty.
The European Parliament has appointed a Rapporteur for the Direct Trade regulation, prepared on the 26th of April 2004 following the referendum on the Annan Plan.
According to the Lisbon Treaty, the Greek Cypriot Side will no longer be able to veto the coming into force of the Direct Trade regulation intended to ease the international isolation of the Turkish Cypriots.
Within the framework of the initiative, the European Parliament’s International Trade Committee appointed Italian Liberal Democrat Niccolo Rinaldi to prepare a report on the regulation.
Debates on the regulation will be held at the meeting of the committee scheduled to take place in Strasbourg on the 19th of April. If approved by the European Parliament.”
Despite being part of a front page Cyprus Today article (31/3/2010) this last information has disappeared from the www.trncinfo.com website but can be found by searching Google for “the European Parliament’s International Trade Committee appointed Italian Liberal Democrat Niccolo Rinaldi to prepare a report on the regulation.”
All very mysterious.
Sources:
[1] Clinton Visit
[2] Meeting with Spanish officials
polly on 
Dominic Freeman on 
David Waters on 
Ian Edwards on
Robin Melhuish: “Perhaps I’ve lost the plot a little…”
Anyone who relies on Turkish Cypriot press needs to have his head examined.
G’R, the article is mainly about politicians and their websites and not the integrity of the Turkish press. Robin does not refer to the Turkish press although he does mention Cyprus Today which is a Cypriot newspaper. You are right of course to always check articles as NCFP have done and that is why they are questioning these statements coming out just before the election. I remember the GC media carrying messages from president Papadopolous in April 2004 just before the referendum:
“Mr Annan singled out the Cypriot leader for criticism in his comments, saying Mr Papadopoulos had not accurately explained the contents of the plan to his people in a key television address.” (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3773841.stm)
Seems like you need your head examined if you rely on Greek Cypriot presidents.
Anyone who relies on comments from G,R. should have their head examined. Just thought I’d return the compliment G.R. and yes you have lost the plot – a lot.
Robin Melhuish: “Perhaps I’ve lost the plot a little…”
Robin , have you considered that this activity surrounding Mr Talat is that in order to boost his chances of “re-election” someone dreamt these meetings and other favourable events surrounding the pseudo state !!
Yiannis, I wrote the article just because of the fact that the statements, for whatever reasons, don’t appear to be true. Superficially plausible, but when you dig deeper, no substance. I can’t think that it does anyone’s election campaign any good at all to be caught out telling untruths.
The question begs asking: Is Talat being torpedoed from within the ministry?
Malcolm , I have not finally worked out anything , I haven’t had to !!
I want the talks to continue and I believe that Mr Talat is far better equipped to carry on the negotiations given that both the president of the RoC and Mr Talat are old comrades .
My personal opinion is that Mr C will have a mammoth task to sell any negotiated agreement to the extreme right G/Cs who consider him , the president , not to be the best leader to achieve a satisfactory solution.
The talks will continue for some time I believe , I just hope that Mr Eroglu remains out of the negotiations.
YS, so you finally worked it out! The trouble is, Talat is supposed to be the good guy!
I believe all this sudden ”diplomatic success” is just the way of the international community to say ”I am supporting Mr Talat” without actually saying it. Because if they say so they believe it ll end up working like a boomerang. (foreign interventions)
The tragic irony of all of this is that the so called democratic elections in “trnc” are nothing but a Big Joke.
WHY?
Because Turkey that ”supports” MR TALAT has made sure over the past 5 years that the majority of Trnc are actually TURKISH SETTLERS and not Turkish Cypriots.
the elections are practically rigged.
Turkey publicly states that supports Talat but at the same time they make sure that most political parties of NorthCyprus motivate Turkish and TC voters to vote for Eroglu.
Do you really believe that if Turkey really wanted TALAT and NOT Eroglu to win the elections Eroglu would had EVER stood a chance ?
Back in 2004
Turkey removed the political monster that hears to the name Rauf Denktash in the blink of an Eye Just because they needed to be more flexible at that time (after the political defeat of Helsinki)
Do you really think Talat is that big of a deal for them?
He is just a Pawn – a soldier – a political card that served his part in the game.
Furthermore..
IF Turkey does not really want Mr. Eroglu then Why they met with him 3 times over the past 6 months in Ankara?
Hm.. maybe to give him instructions? Sorry guys for jumping into conclusions here but I never recall a GC candidate in the South to EVER visit the prime minister of Greece before the elections..
…
so one might ask..
-Why Turkey does not want Talat but really prefers Eroglu?
..
Turkey wants to disconnect the Cyprus problem from its european accession Road (But the thing is the do not really want to rush things up and ”sacrifice” Cyprus without being sure they are going to win something back in return. And especially now that Turkish deplomacy triumphs worldwide and leaded to the ”Greatest political victory of Turkey since 1974” ( as President GUL said about the ECHR decision) Time just works for their own interest like never before. Its simple: They need to buy few more years with the present status quo.
So they invented the ”Free-will” of Tc voters that negotiate their luck for themselves.. Turkey supposedly does whatever it takes to influence them to solve the cyprus problem and repeatedly states that supports Mr Talat.. ”What else Can we do?” Mr Davoudoglou says while asking from the international community to ”give him something to hold on to” and help Talat ”win” the elections..
its a win-win situation for Turkey now days.
The only looser will be Cyprus and TC that they are probably going to take the blame for ”voting” for a Joker and ending the negotiations (even though they are not the majority in Northen Cyprus any more) They are probably going to be isolated even further and became an even smaller minority under the Turkish lover-Eroglu regime.
I wish i am wrong so we can actually reunite cyprus..
But logic dictates that the die is cast..
K, 18 months of Cyprus Talks to decide on nothing doesn’t help either. If Talat were to win the elections what difference would it make?
Malcolm Channing: “Seems like you need your head examined if you rely on Greek Cypriot presidents.”
I don’t think so! Annan is long gone, but the RoC is still alive and well!
Actually not only that, but the results of GC presidents speak for themselves…
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus29221.html
Now is a good time to chew on your keyboard Malcolm.
Malcolm i am sure you are smarter than this mate..
Talat is internationally committed to do whatever it takes for a FAST Federated solution that will reunite Cyprus as one Free independent Country, if he acts otherwise both him and Turkey (that supported him) will probably have some sort of consequences.
Eroglu never committed to anything like this in contrary he is committed to his voters for a partition of Cyprus. Eroglus is actually a part of the Cyprus problem not yet alone a Solution to it..
Now since Turkey does not really Want a solution ..All Turkey ever wanted is to be part of the European Union and grab some sweet EUROS.
(Cyprus is just in the way..) you figure out the rest..
For 35 years now Turkey claims that Cyprus problem was solved in 1974 And for 35 years now Turkey has proven to the World that No-one can scratch their balls on anything by not respecting several UN resolutions.
Why you think now all of the sudden ”wants” and ”supports” a solution?
Even in 2004 ,As you are very well aware, the fifth military Coup in modern T. history was on its way just in case even that lame Annan plan passed..
Luckily for them GC were always TOO F$#%ing STUPID to act smart..
G{R, not sure how any of that is relevant to my comment about Papadopolous’ misinformation so I’ll give the keyboard chewing a miss.
K, Talat has achieved nothing in 18 months so even I’m smart enough to extrapolate that to come to the conclusion that if he were re-elected then the talks would have to continue ad infinitum for any results to be evident.
yes.. of-course i acknowledge all this facts M but to the bottom line of all this pile of crap a mathematical equation emerge:
Talat minus solution = Isolation of Tc AND political consequences for TURKEY.
Eroglu minus solution = isolation of TC. Turkey will argue that “we cannot force the TC people to do anything against there own will and you cannot punish us any more cuz we did anything we could”
”Talat agrees to a solution” = plausible sentence that makes some sort of sense
Eroglu agrees to a solution = We live in the MATRIX or the End of the World is Near..
As GC We are ”forced” to make a choice of what we prefer: TALAT VS EROGLU
I know its like choosing between deliquescent shit and solit shit
but..
I prefer Talat. And I just hope for the best.. I know its unlikely we find a solution but at least is not impossible..
LONDON – The British Supreme Court Wednesday rejected a petition by British citizens Linda and David Orams to file an appeal against the ruling of the British Court of Appeal in the case of Apostolides vs Orams.
In January, the British Court of Appeal ruled that the Orams must execute a judgment by a Cypriot court, which said that they must demolish the house they illegally built in the land of Greek Cypriot Meletis Apostolides in the northern Turkish occupied areas of Cyprus and deliver the property to its legal owner.
In statements to CNA, Lawyer of Greek Cypriot refugee Meletis Apostolides, Constantis Kantounas underscored the importance of today’s decision, saying that “this is the end of the road”.
He also expressed the view that today’s ruling proves that similar cases like the Apostolides case are not influenced in any way by the recent decision of the European Court of Humans Rights (ECHR), which said that a self-styled immovable property commission in the Turkish occupied areas of Cyprus constitutes an effective domestic remedy which Greek Cypriots must exhaust before resorting to the ECHR.
“We are very pleased and of course relieved because this is indeed the end of the road”, Kantounas told CNA, adding that already in January, he had said that the ruling of the British Court of Appeal ruling was final.
Kantounas went on to say that “with today’s judgment the British Supreme Court has clearly stated that the ECHR ruling in the case of Demopoulos vs Turkey and 7 others has no influence over such lawsuits. The recent ECHR decision does not change the status of such cases”.
Replying to questions, the Cypriot lawyer said that the Orams have moved from the house they illegally built on Apostolides’ plot and have abandoned the property.
But he noted that they have not yet complied with the Court ruling to demolish the house and pay compensation to the legal owner of the property.
“Since they have not yet paid any compensation, a decree was issued by the Court which Stipulates that property owned by the Orams in Britain is to be charged,” he added.
The British Court of Appeal ruled in January that a decision by a Cypriot court, in connection with claims relating to Greek Cypriot owned property in Cyprus’ northern Turkish occupied areas, must be executed.
The British Court judgment was issued in the case of Apostolides v Orams, in which Greek Cypriot Meletis Apostolides took the Orams couple to court, claiming his property rights over his property in the occupied areas where the Orams had built, illegally, a holiday home.
The Cypriot court had ordered the Orams to pay compensation to Apostolides, demolish the holiday home they had built in his property in the Turkish occupied village of Lapithos, halt all intervention on the said property and deliver it to its legal owner.
The British Court of Appeal said this ruling must be executed.
Amazing, have they only just put a charge on Orams British home, if so, why the hell didnt they get rid of it whilst there was
no encumberance on it? I personally would have disposed of it and
all other assets in UK the day I was served with the first writ.
Seems the Orams had the same Advocate initially as the majority
of the people on Kulaksiz 5!!! I make no comment on his efficacy.
With regard to demolishing the property in Lapta, how can they if
the government wont let them?
The Orams were mislead just as they and thousands of other cheapskates were and are still being minipulated by the so called judicial system of the occupied part . Look at the way each and every cheapskate jumps up with joy whenever a cat from the “trnc” crossess the …road safely !!
Direct Trade, what a joke. What difference does it make? The TRNC applies so much duty to things coming in that they shoot their own people in the foot. Why does it cost so much to get your auto fixed or to buy things in the stores? A friend who has a store there brought things from the UK. The TRNC are charging 50% duty on the cost of the goods and the shipping. I ask you what difference does is make for open trade when the TRNC closes the borders itself?
Should the UK apply a 50% duty to things coming from the TRNC, then the government would cry and say they are being treated unfairly.
Polly, perhaps the Orams property is in negative equity?
YS, the Orams decision cannot be changed because the case was started before the IPC became the ONLY route for settling Cyprus property problems – apart from waiting for a political solution. It would be interesting to see if anyone is willing to try the Apostilides route to see if the ECHR’s judgement will be adhered to. Mind you when the Orams go bankrupt, and Apostiledes is left with a £1m legal bill, that might dissuade people from following his example. Perhaps Mr. A has an Argentus arboras?
Malcolm why do you give such misleading statements ?
The IPC was never declared the ONLY route for settling property issues , it was declared the first port of call , the legal owners can still take their case to the EU courts via the courts of the RoC if inadequate provision is obtained from Turkey. You have made much of the ECHR declaration but have omitted to inform your readership that the ECHR NEVER recognized the “trnc” nor did it state that the RoC IS NO NONGER THE ONLY SOVEREIGN POWER OVER THE ENTIRE ISLAND.
So its tough for you mate and the rest of the cheapskates !
As for Mr A owning an AA tree the answer is an emphatic NO , The illusionary AA tree is wholly owned by the Cheapskates in the occupied part of Cyprus
“The government had asked for the legal opinion after the ECHR ruled last week that the Immovable Property Commission (IPC) in the occupied areas was an effective domestic remedy of Turkey. As a result of the landmark ruling, Greek Cypriot refugees seeking compensation or restitution for their properties in the occupied areas will now have to exhaust all domestic remedies in the occupied areas before applying to the ECHR in Strasbourg.”
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus/government-gets-legal-opinion-echr-ruling/20100313
It is a remedy that HAS to be used or else wait for a political solution. Wait and see.
Plus the “money tree” is not an illusion, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_tree
“Talat… spoke with EU officials on the phone and asked their support for Direct Trade Regulation which is started to be discussed in April.
Talat had phone conversations with EU President Spain’s Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, European Commissioner for Enlargement Stefan Fuele, Vice Chair of European Parliament Libor Roucek and EP Socialist Group Chairman Martin Schulz on Wednesday. “
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=56338
Perhaps he also had a phone conversation with Clinton as well??? That counts as talks doesn’t it???
Kyriacos, I’ve managed to wend my way to the end of those three posts of yours, and you know what? I’m buggered if I can understand why you claim the GCs are forced to choose between Talat and Eroglu. You must have told us a dozen times about how Turkey needed to sort out the solution to the Cyprob without once referring to what the GCs might need to do. Or even might need to agree to.
You seem to be suggesting that the solution lies all in the hands of Talat or Eroglu, without appearing to credit the GC heirarchy with any part to play at all, either for or against.
Do you not consider that Mr Liesalot will be good for some form of solution? Or do you think he’s only there for the coffee and cakes?
Seems all to be getting away from the issue of disinformation about invites, meetings and items for debate in the EU parliament that just don’t happen. Who’s behind the stories?
when i say forced to choose Ian… i speak metaphorically.. I believe you don’t need to be an actual voter in order to say what you prefer..
\\”You seem to be suggesting that the solution lies all in the hands of Talat or Eroglu, without appearing to credit the GC heirarchy with any part to play at all, either for or against.”//
All i want is the cyprus problem to be solved and cyprus to be REUNITED once again.. but i guess that is a very general desire.. that many people nowadays seems to share..
The problem are the specific desires of each side, right?
shall i be more specific then:
When i say Reunification I mean Reunification otherwise why even bother. The Turkish side i am afraid means recognition of an illegal entity that was created after an illegal action.
Why am i saying this?
I can mention lots of examples but i ll focus in only one for the sake of a good conversation
When i say Reunification i mean a United Economy without Regulations and restrictions
i want the GC to be able to invest in the North and the TC to be able to invest in the South the same way i am able to invest in Germany Bulgaria England or even AMERICA: =FREE
The reason for me wanting this is simple: ECONOMIC PROSPERITY LIES ONLY WITHIN ACTUAL FREEDOM (miltonFreedman)
Turkish side proposes That GC must not be able to invest in the North. (while at the same time a Jew or a German is welcomed to invest in the North. Also Proposes 2 separate central banks to be created that will be able to get separate loans in the name of a United Cyprus. They don’t accept a central economic monitoring authority to be created and they demand exception from the european legislations (like if this is even possible) and furthermore they propose that the Central Government must Undertake the weight of the TC debt in Turkey over the past 45 years etc etc..
The above are not fictions of my imagination I happen to be informed from first hand for what is going on in the negotiations.
I am afraid that Tc will never be free..
Obviously They don’t know how things works in an economy or they know but they prefer to sabotage the economic growth for both of us in order to force UnitedCyprus into the steps of Czechoslovakia.
Their leaders tend to propagate that the reason we want a united economy is because we want to ”control” them. (witch is of-course false. The only reason their leaders come out with such lies is to protect their own economic micro- elite that benefits form the current status quo in the North)
They seem to ignore the fact that America or any Other Great country didn’t become Great by dividing and putting economic restrictions based on ethic criteria.
Really i don’t even bother anymore explaining the benefits of a united cyprus – united economy
If they don’t want a united economy fair be it.. its like chocolate cake for me .. you don’t like it its ok i ll not try to convince you it taste good- ill just enjoy mine – ill even have your piece.
…
I ll be Ugly here. if I had to choose only between a united country with two separate Central banks and two entirely separate countries i would easily prefer 2 separate countries mate.. Trnc has 1/10 the size of the GC economy and at the same time it has 3 times more BANKS than the GC economy. Its like everyone there owns a bank . No-one knows the Health of those banks. The State charge 50% taxes for every private economic activity unless you are part of their elite. And they have the largest public sector in the world after Cuba. Every year they ask for more and more money from Turkey. Obviously their economy is not the best. How on earth they expect us to accept those terms they propose. For global standards we are both small economies. In a world where countries nowadays tend to unite and collaborate for economic benefits (EU). They refuse to merge and practically ask to maintain the present status quo and we just take the part of Turkey in giving them money..
i don’t see much Mr Liesalot can do here besides drinking more Coffee and wait..
Amen Kyriacos!
“Their leaders tend to propagate that the reason we want a united economy is because we want to ”control” them. (witch is of-course false. The only reason their leaders come out with such lies is to protect their own economic micro- elite that benefits form the current status quo in the North)”
” The State charge 50% taxes for every private economic activity unless you are part of their elite. And they have the largest public sector in the world after Cuba. Every year they ask for more and more money from Turkey.”
I am not the smartest finance person, but give me 5 years and I could drive this economy. Lower taxes to 10%, reign in the banks, declare a free trade zone, attract high tech investment. What software company would not want to locate in beautiful surroundings with big tax incentives? And let’s see how the world puts an embargo on the Internet, the means of moving their commodities in and out. You would have people knocking down the door to get in, a vibrant economy and people would be seeking you out and not the other way around. Then everything you negotiate is from a position of strength.
Right now there is a few who use this as their personal fiefdom. One example, the country cannot pay its own way and yet they buy their government people big Mercedes to drive around on their two main roads. Talk about being a big fish in a puddle flopping around.
They use and despise the British, and yet there is far more talent in the pinkies of the retired British community than they have in the whole country. And yet every night on TV they talk about how we are the best, how we are going to do this and that. The funny thing is it has been the same show for the last 30 years. They are like the 55 year old child that is still living at his parents home and lets his mother take care of him.
”They use and despise the British, and yet there is far more talent in the pinkies of the retired British community than they have in the whole country.”
I would say that British pensioners on this island overtop in talent both GC and TC communities put together
(if you except that quite smart GC guy who was nominated for Nobel in economics) and Stelios hjioannou and maybe some few others 
ok now seriously..
you know..sometimes i feel like,,..
…Oh just give them their bloody recognition for christ sake!!!!!
Two separate states! Thats it! we are finished! And If you like Turkey so much marry it! Be a Turkish village!
I sound a bit harsh but its simple as that boys.. its either us or them! You can’t have it both ways, we don’t want to be controlled by ANYONE. We don’t want mother lands any more, you have to choose.
What are you? Cypriots or Turks?
Their politicians spoon fed them with the fairy-tale of isolation 24/7 for years now and hide their own incompetence behind that big old excuse..
”isolation” is the one and ONLY reason we have problems”. (bla bla bla) .. Come on!!! The Economic superpower of the area is bloody turkey for christ sake!! you know.. Ok lets say your embargo is lifted Now you are an independent country with what ever that means! First of all you will have to get REAL loans from European Central bank now and not Turkey. Secondly look at your neighbors: Syria? Egypt? IRAQ? palestine? Israel? or even worse Greece? hmm… maybe isolation is DNA inherited for Cyprus?
Do you think that German or British eager to buy your Oranges? You think is That easy? Think twice about it! (like gnarls barkley says)
Think!!
.. Even now you can easily sell your products to them (if you produce any) via Turkey.
Furthermore lets explore a bit further this scenario,, All that money that Turkey is alleged to be paying now as compensation to the GC refugees will be now charged directly to you! And not only that! GC will be now able to sue you DIRECTLY (since now you are a legal country) For Reasons you cannot even Imagine! You think you can handle it? Not to mention the Turkish Settlers that will always be there to make sure your economy will always have 10%+ of unemployment.
It’s Not All Rainbows and Butterflies..
Ok maybe I got carried a bit away and sound like a hard-core nationalist.. BUT I AM NOT! I only care about Cyprus , Thats it!
I am sure some Tc exist out there and see the potentials of a truly united country but i am afraid their voices are just not loud enough!
When one is found to shout REUNIFICATION ten other will shout back Long live the (corrupted regime) of Trnc…
the situation is just too messed up for hope now days.. it is what it is..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMn9pocdCbs
IMPORTANT IMPORTANT INPORTANT
AKFINANS BANK LTD to auction Kulaksiz 5
in JUNE 2010. Exact date to be arranged.
Thomas
You, as always, make a lot of sense. You are Turkish Cypriot,
come back and run for office.
Kyriacos, clearly you know your economics, and it seems you could even be a genuine Cypriot yearning for a fair and workable reunification. But this statement of yours, and the smooth way you blithely passed over it is, I think, the key…”Their leaders tend to propagate that the reason we want a united economy is because we want to ”control” them. (witch is of-course false.”
I’d guess that kind of assurance doesn’t sit easily on the minds of those who can remember being “controlled” before 1974. The standard GC rejoinder these days is something like “But all we GCs want is to govern the island democratically.” Unfortunately, that’s what Makarios used to say too.
So, Kyriacos, all your sophisticated economic analysis, and yours too Thomas, will be for naught unless you can come up with a scheme of reunified government that really does safeguard the minority TCs in a fair and impartial way. And that’s a little more than impersonal economic rhetoric, guys…it goes to every facet of normal societal living.
K, I’ve listened and read a lot about solving the Cyprus problem but am always left with the feeling that words will never be enough. One of the best tricks in negotiation is to find a member of your team who is the most open minded and to get them to agree, in words only, to what the other side wants. When the deal is struck get this open minded person to persuade the other side to sign up, in the belief that the document being signed is what has been agreed. In the end, as Turkish Cypriots discovered after April 2004, the “other side” finds out that what they were told by this well meaning negotiator is far from the truth.
K, you sound like a well meaning negotiator. What the actual URS details are, that’s another matter, and whether they can be screwed up and thrown away when it suits the ruling party, that’s even more important. In the RoC, like in the north, Middle East rules apply.
Ian and Malcolm i believe president christofias by proposing the alternate presidentship scheme as form of a reunified government really does more than enough than safeguarding the minority TCs in a fair and impartial way. If intentions were as good on the other side and all they cared about was REUNIFICATION and ONLY REUNIFICATION. Cyprus problem would be solved now. Lets be honest here, I don’t know even one single country in this world that blood wasn’t spilled in civil wars in the past, I mean.. Spain? Switzerland? Brussels? British? Americans? They all had their civil-war blood-baths and even one might say theirs were 1000times bigger in scale and brutality than ours. They moved on and now they are the most powerful countries in this world. They killed each other in the past but I dont see any crazy partitioning elements inside their constitutions today. Sorry my friend, but i strongly believe that most of the Tc proposals serve the interest of Turkey only. Or even worse the interest of the corrupted economic elite of trnc.
/ its so obviest../ i shouldn’t even bother try explaining this.. but lets follow some examples
”I propose all Turkish settlers stay in cyprus” (and be numerically more than The TC) how does this proposal benefits Cyprus in ANY wAY? or Even benefits TC alone? This proposal clearly serves Turkish interests.
”you killed us back in the 60s so now we want to seperate central banks and many regulations in the economy” ..clearly this proposal serves the interest of a corrupted elite
”We want Turkish Army to stay on the Island – We want Turkey As Guarantor Power of Cyprus indefinitely”
..Again .. 98% Turkish interest . I dont see any Swedish person arguing that Germany should be a Guarantor power in Sweden indefinitely. Sorry. Turkey is just 5 minutes from Cyprus. Its ridiculous.
”But we don’t feel save you wanna kill us”
Here i shall made a small bracket and explain why this is clearly a false argument.
Tc Claim that Gc is to be blamed for everything for the 60s but Really..
examine those few historic facts that many people today seem to ignore:
On March 1972 Macarios delivered all his weapons to UN forces and asked form the TC community to do the same. (weapons that he imported from chechoslovakia!! and not Greece) (why? because The Greek military junta considered Makarios as a traitor!! On February 14 a Greek coup in Cyprus was canceled at the last minute, Why military junta wanted to overthrown Makarios? Because he refused the ”Acheson plan” that proposed that Cyprus should be divided and the 2 halfs shall be annexed with Greece and Turkey! The last action in this tug of war was “ecclesiastical coup ‘three Cypriot bishops who attempted to overthrow Makarios from the position of president, arguing that the’ sacred rules” do not allow it to pursue “cosmic task”. The bishops came to the deposition of Makarios, which of course was never implemented. Further more Makarios in contact with Alexandros panagoulis tried to Kill The Dictator Papadopoulos. (of Greece) Panagoulis entered Greece with a Cypriot passport And that is considered to be the final Nail in the Greek- Cypriot Relationships coffin of that Time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandros_Panagoulis
At the same time TC never stopped importing Guns directly from Turkey (form 1962 till 1974) they imported 5 times more Guns than GC. Why?
Furthermore
Makarios proclaimed elections in 1970 and asked form GC to vote if they wanned Enosis or independence by voting against or For him. Makarios that supported independence won the elections with 92% and Grivas that supported Enosis received a ridiculous amount of voters. Nevertheless they did not surrender and they keep on trying to sabotage Cyprus in order to commit enosis.
Turkish cypriots with TNT aslo tried to sabotage Cyprus in order to commit partition.
TNT forced TC out of the Government Why? because Turkey asked to do so.
Some TC refused. The first Supreme court judge of Cyprus was a TC mr. Zekkian A honorable man!
Him and his judges refused to obey mr Denktash and his friends in Turkey. Those are the Kind of TC that we want. Those who put Cyprus Above motherlands..
What i am trying to say here is simple: The notion that GC are responsible for everything before 1974 is simply not True.
A part of GC extremist yes ofcourse is responsible but also a part of TC extremist did whatever they could to destroy and divide Cyprus.
Many people seem to ignore that GC were so divided that time that even during the turkish invasion some GC killed eachother.
Even that Famous Constitution change that Makarios is alleged to have done in order harm the TC is simply not that simple opinion to express, WHY??
because Makarios back then PROPOSED those Changes he did not Forced anything he PROPOSED and asked for a negotiation. TNT and Denktash reaction was to start a war … a ..”Revolution” in order to remove all TC form Roc and create their own State.
If you ask me the Proposal by makarios was a Big mistake but nevertheless
Don’t you think that to declare war is a little bit of overreaction for a constitution change proposal?
and Finally if turkey is alleged to have invaded Cyprus to protect the TC Then why they had to invade in a time that NO TC wasn’t killed for over 2 years? At a time that everything seemed to start getting better?
And Why after invading for First Time in 1974 and conquered Kerynia and Karpasia (like Acherson Plan was proposing)
Why nearly a month Later and with practically all TC ”save” they had to proceed and conquer the Rest of the island?
A MONTH LATER!!!!!
copy paste from wikipedia:
Turkey invaded Cyprus on Saturday, 20 July 1974, after unsuccessfully trying to get support from one of the other guarantor forces – Britain. Heavily armed troops landed shortly before dawn at Kyrenia (Girne) on the northern coast. Ankara claimed that it was invoking its right under the Treaty of Guarantee to protect the Turkish Cypriots and guarantee the independence of Cyprus
On 23 July 1974 the Greek military junta collapsed mainly because of the events in Cyprus. Greek political leaders in exile started returning in the country. On 24 July 1974 Constantine Karamanlis returned from Paris and was sworn in as Prime Minister.
At a conference on ->>>14 August 1974, Turkey demanded from the Cypriot government to accept its plan for a federal state, and population transfer. When the Cypriot acting president Clerides asked for 36 to 48 hours in order to consult with Athens and with Greek Cypriot leaders, the Turkish Foreign Minister denied Clerides that opportunity on the grounds that Makarios and others would use it to play for more time.
An hour and a half after the conference broke up, the new Turkish attack began. Britain’s then foreign secretary and soon to be prime minister James Callaghan, later disclosed that U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger “vetoed” at least one British military action to pre-empt the Turkish landing. Turkish troops rapidly occupied even more than was asked for at Geneva. 36.5% of the land came under Turkish occupation reaching as far south as the Louroujina salient. In the process, many Greek Cypriots (who made up 82 per cent of the population in the north) became refugees. The Cypriot government estimates their numbers at about 200,000,[31] with other sources stating 140,000 to 160,000.[32] Many of them were forced out of their homes (violations of human rights by the Turkish army have been acknowledged by the European Court of Human Rights in four interstate applications between Cyprus and Turkey as well as in other cases as in the case of Loizidou vs Turkey), the rest fleeing at the word of the approaching Turkish army.
So with all that historic Facts in mind don’t you think that demanding for partitioning elements and guarantor powers with the argument of protection is a bit of a hypocrisy?
You had it your way in 1974 you succeeded to divide cyprus For 35 years you claimed that everything was OK and Cyprus problem was solved. For 35 years you have proven to the world that NO ONE can force you to leave Cyprus. Now what do you want form us? you Say you want Reunification OK THEN! lets Reunite! Stop bullshitting us in order to help Turkey Join the European Union. And Lets REUNITE CYPRUS!
Here is how Good intention proposal look like:
I propose Every GC or TC that Hires a TC or a TC to get a TAX relieve.
I propose that Every GC or TC wants to renounce his TC or GC citizenship to embrace a CYPRIOT citizenship will be now able to do so.
everything else is horsecrap my friend..
If you Get Married you Get Married .. you can’t have Lovers as well.
……….
i mean.. Come on!
Do you know that even Today a british citizen or any other foreigner whatsoever if he wants to be naturalized as Cypriot he has to choose if he wants to be TC or GC?
he can just be CYPRIOT he has to choose! Why? because of the Constitution that didn’t needed to be changed.
Do you know that if a GC and a TC marry their children can’t be just Cypriots? they have to Choose where they want to belong.!!
Sorry ian.. but for me things are as simple as that.. its either True REUNIFICATION or Stop wasting my Time.
sorry,.
Kyriacos, you seem to be a genuinely impassioned Cypriot who really does want a truly reunited Cyprus, and in that wish I absolutely agree with you. If that reunification could opccur with cast-iron guarantees for equity for all I would jump at it, along I’m sure with everyone else.
But this suggestion of yours…”Here is how Good intention proposal look like:
I propose Every GC or TC that Hires a TC or a TC to get a TAX relieve.
I propose that Every GC or TC wants to renounce his TC or GC citizenship to embrace a CYPRIOT citizenship will be now able to do so.
everything else is horsecrap my friend..” really is too simplistic. Everything else isn’t, unfortunately, horsecrap.
It’s the nuts and bolts of agreements that is where things come unstuck, such as power-sharing and property ownership. If there could be les intransigence on the part of the GCs, then Turkey would indeed have to put up or shut up. As third world attitudes fade, the “corrupted economic elite of trnc” will fade too, but they aren’t alone. I’m sure the corrupted economic elite in the ROC is as bad, and that of Greece itself is obviously worse.
I support you in most of your views, but I can’t help wondering just how many of your GC colleagues agree with you. I have a sneaking suspicion that you wouldn’t get a lot of change out of guys like Get Real, Neo, Masta et al.
K wrote, “Ian and Malcolm i believe president christofias by proposing the alternate presidentship scheme as form of a reunified government really does more than enough than safeguarding the minority TCs in a fair and impartial way. ”
I think they said that about the 1960 constitution.
K wrote, “If you Get Married you Get Married .. you can’t have Lovers as well.”
Perhaps not if you are a woman in a strict Muslim country.
Well-said Kyriacos. Outsiders/newcomers to the Cyprus problem cannot grasp the simple fact that having been occupied and governed by Turkey (sometimes cruelly) for centuries the majority were not prepared to allow the remaining Ottoman descendants disproportionate power or rights, it’s a bit like rubbing salt in a 300 year old wound. In fact the privileges and “safeguards” granted to the minority in 1960 were divisive, they had the opposite effect and were the cause of friction between the two communities. The 1960 Treaty of Guarantee, by granting rights of intervention, meant that Cyprus was not a sovereign State. No other country in the world has “legal” rights of intervention imposed on it.
Perhaps some of the more enlightened contributors can explain why Cyprus is different from any other post-colonial State.
Jerry, you clearly show why TCs, Ottoman descendants as you call them, do not want anything to do with you. It’s because of the “300 year old wound” which has obviously not healed for some GCs. You cannot live side-by-side as equals. The Peace Talks are dead, long live Peace!
Malcolm
Clearly living in the past suits some, but until real healing
and forgiveness takes place, nothing can or will change.
No Malcolm, you have interpreted “Ottoman Descendants” as a derogratory term, that was not my intention. You have also failed to understand how Greek Cypriots felt about TCs being granted disproportionate power in 1960, just go back 50 years and imagine you are a GC – how would you have felt at the time? I have no problem with equality of individuals, I do have a problem where one fifth of the population, the descendants of the former rulers of Cyprus (is that better?), can, for example, veto the will of the majority.
Polly if your “living in the past” comment was directed at me then may I suggest that you also address it to the TCs and their recently domiciled champions.
Jerry, Kyriacos’ post was well put, but nothing is as simple as either he put it, or as you put it. He likened the Cyprus situation to all other countries that have experienced civil wars and bloodshed.
You claim that the 1960 constitution was unfair and was the cause of the “friction and divisiveness” between the communities.
But none of those other countries had two such disparate groups trying to co-exist, each with its own religion, language, society and culture, all as different as chalk and cheese.
And all that “unfair” 1960 constitution did was make it difficult for GCs to run Cyprus as they chose, as another Greece. So they chose to change things unilaterally, and they were anything but “proposals”.
Jerry, this nonsense about 300 year-old wounds is just that, and a classic example of why there will almost certainly never be accord. You complained about “disproportionate” rights, but that’s nonsense too. Rights either exist or they don’t…you can’t constrain a group of people to 20% rights because they are only 20% of the population. But that was what the GCs were trying to do, and clearly what you still think should be the case.
Jerry,”Ottoman Descendants” was seen as being reference to the group of people who “occupied and governed [Cyprus] (sometimes cruelly) for centuries… it’s a bit like rubbing salt in a 300 year old wound.” It was seen as an attempt by you to racially stereotype a group of people living in Cyprus.
Of course I wouldn’t like a minority group to be positively discriminated against but I might feel guilty if, for example, the group I belonged to had in the past been guilty of selling their ancestors into slavery. In the case of Turkish Cypriots I can see that you would feel as if “salt was being rubbed into a wound.” Unfortunately this does nothing to help solve the current problem and in fact it makes it worse. That’s the trouble with people who racially stereotype, they blame everyone of the same race for historical incidents. It’s an attempt to justify a viewpoint. In the case of Turkish Cypriots they want their own country, equivalent to Jews’ Israel. You are attempting to justify why they shouldn’t have it.
I don’t know, Get Real, Neo, Masta et al i have no idea who these guys are so i cannot tell if i get along with them or not. I can tell you this though.. Gc that don’t recognize where they’ve done wrong tent to annoy me, OK, But in the same way TC that argue that they played no part at all in the partition of the island tent to annoy me also. In order to move on, we both have to admit our mistakes. And we’ve both done plenty , GC wanned Enosis TC wanned Partition They both Didn’t want a common Country.
Now here is what happens: There is a thing called ”Mass behavior” People in masses tent to express more irrational, and are capable for things you cannot even imagine, but if you approach each and everyone individually you see that >>in most cases<< you can find that the person is not completely OK with the behavior of the masses. But due to social conformism they tend to behave the same.
So to the bottom line i am optimistic, GC do not want Enosis with Greece anymore thats for sure but they are not sure either if they are willing to risk their economy for few more villages, Tc want something else but they have no idea what it is yet, I ll just wait a bit more till they both got it right ..I don't think everyone out there is as stupid or Crazy as it seems. You just keep showing them the moon and they keep looking at the finger, thats all..
Ps: Yes of-course Everything else isn’t, horsecrap but they are not as complicated as they seem either. I Strongly believe the most important thing is Freedom. The freedom to Choose.
Think about it, Where and when in the history of manKind minorities had equal rights with the majority? But ofcourse in countries like America that it doesn't matter if you are Irish Greek Or Whatever. ''You are all Americans'' said the constitution. Now How free is a society that the people in it are forbidden by the constitution to be just Cypriots?
I am not saying that everyone should be force to be Cypriot against his will But AT LEAST just give people the chance to choose what they wanna be. You think is OK and Democratic that ArmenianCypriots MaronCypriots ect. were forced to Choose where to belong? I Strongly believe that this is one of the most fundamental things that got wrong in the Cyprus problem.
The british Gave us a constitution that encouraged partition, a constitution that is valid until today and was never putted to the vote of the people. And furthermore all those partitioning elements of the Constitution were UNCHANGEABLE!. It doesn't take too much of a brain to see why this is wrong and it doesn't take too much of a brain to realize that British military Bases would have never stood a chance to exist today in the Year 2010 if it wasn't for the Cyprus problem. I am not being Anti-british here but that is a truth.
If only we had a leader back then to see all of this coming and make a collaboration with the British and the TC.
But from the other hand how could it be any different? Did you know that even Today there is a Law inside R.O.Cyprus constitution that forbids Teachers or Academic people in general to enter politics?
Why?
Imperialistic Britain obviously wanted to make sure that The leaders of the oppressed were not very well educated. The result?: MAKARIOS
What else can i Say?
Kyriacos, you’ve got my vote for President of Cyprus.
Unless, of course, you’re a teacher…
Ian, before you comment on “disparate groups trying to co-exist” I suggest you study the racial and tribal differences between the African countries that were previously British Colonies. They all got “one man one vote” and majority rule. South Africa was embargoed because it did not accept the normal standards of democracy.
Why should the departing colonial power prohibit the majority from expressing their free will at the ballot box – as happens in any other country.
You clearly have difficulty in distinguishing between individual rights and community rights, but please explain why one TC vote should equate to four GC votes because that was the effect of the 1960 constitution.
You may dismiss 300 year-old wounds as nonsense but I don’t think you are best qualified to comment on how a GC felt about Turkish influence on Cyprus in 1960, I was aware of the feelings of Cypriots at that time and rubbing salt in the wound is very much how some felt especially as they were aware that Turkey wanted Cyprus returned when the British left.
Malcolm, I have no problem with TCs having their own country if that is what they (not Turkey or the illegal settlers) want providing it is not at the expense of the other community. The practical consequence, of course, would be that the north becomes a Turkish outpost devoid of TCs some of whom would not doubt move south. As for “racial stereotyping”, the problem was never the individual TC but the fact that they are the lever that Turkey uses to exert pressure on the ROC.
The society of the internet does not need ”the president of the internet”..
actually the internet have taught us that the role of leaders in a society is overrated..
Jerry wrote,“one man one vote”
It would work perfectly if the north and south were separate countries and women were given the vote too
Gerry, what I suggest you do is give some thought to the possibility that every country with a history of internecine strife should be considered as a separate case study, for reasons which any fledgling anthropologist learns in their first year of study. Your example of South Africa is just one such study, where initially a very small minority was in total control of a very large majority. When democracy came to power, the situation reversed itself, to the point that exists today. Do you think fairness and equity was the result, Jerry? I have seven South African colleagues who are very graphic in their description of what life in South Africa under “normal standards of democracy” is really like today. And only two of them are white.
In Cyprus, prior to 1974, it was the majority who already had control, and their “normal standards of democracy” were systematically trying to rid the island of the minority. The imbalance in the constitution was created specifically to attempt to safeguard that minority, but along came Makarios…
Jerry, like Yiannis you read only what you want to see…I wasn’t commenting on how GCs felt in 1960. I’m sure you were more aware of that than I, as I wasn’t there. What I said was that such feelings for a 300 year-old situation were a nonsense – they were absolutely no excuse to foment a conflict with modern TCs who had as much right to claim Cyprus as their homeland as did the GCs.
Jerry i mean no disrespect here my friend but have you thoroughly thought this whole ”one man one vote” thing?
This argument, allow me to say, is a bit outdated. Gc used to use it a lot 30 years ago but with todays standards I don’t think is in the best interest of the GC to use it any more. Actually I am surprised TC are not using it right now!
As things look Turkish Settlers are quit hard to get rid of, And there is a probable scenario that one day neither GC nor TC be the majority in this island, and with Turkey as Part of the European Union, I don’t know man.. ”1 man 1 vote” sounds a bit.. suicidal?
Of course your arguments are valid and of course they make sense but Arguments like that all the manage to do at the very end is disorient us. I strongly believe that we are missing the Big picture here.. We need to focus on a Federated solution with a workable constitution ASAP Or otherwise we will reach a point where GC will have absolutely nothing to Gain from a Reunification. At least today we have 1 or 2 things to Gain.
Cyprus will not be the first and for sure not the last country with weighted voting.
IF you ask me even the Annan plan proposal for parliament and no presidential democracy was ..OK
The Real problems are the Freedom-Related issues and i believe thats where we need to focus on.
That is an area where even foreigners can see things the way we see them and if our voices are loud and Clear enough maybe we can actually manage to change something, you know\?
Jerry, I mean no disrespect either, but Kyriacos has very clearly got an intelligent handle on things.
It really is a shame he doesn’t have any official capacity, or the solution could quite conceivably be just around the corner.
K, you’re not in politics in the south are you? You are beginning to sound very reasonable and some of your arguments are quite radical and, dare I say, potential vote winners.
Kyriacos, one man (including women, Malcolm) one vote should only apply to legitimate citizens of the ROC or a future agreed State of Cyprus but it’s not going to happen is it? As you say with Turkey in the EU it could be suicidal which is why I believe that partition is inevitable. North Cyprus will never become part GC part TC as it was pre 1960, it is lost to Greek Cypriots for ever. We should strive for a return of a fair share of the island and allow the north to make its own way. The north would in effect become a province of the mainland with few TCs remaining.
A fair partition (20/80?) would prevent Turkey from having any influence Greek Cypriot affairs, I fear that federation would give that country another opportunity to foment communal strife and we could lose even more of the island. Of course within the EU permanent derogations would need to be established to prevent mass migration to Cyprus from the mainland.
Frankly GCs have nothing to gain from re-unification, the economy of the north would have to be propped up for years by the new state, our resources would be best employed in redeveloping Varosha and other returned territory.
Jerry wrote, “The north would in effect become a province of the mainland with few TCs remaining. ”
and so would the south if Turkey enters the EU, they’ll buy up all the homes until they have a majority vote. I used “would” because you used “would”. How would mass migration be stopped, the EU insists on free movement of EU citizens. I believe that the only way forwards for the RoC is to leave the EU, if they want the kind of things you are writing about Jerry.
No.. i am not in politics .. i am an academic..
Jerry:
”One man one vote should only apply to legitimate citizens”
I am afraid that’s not possible my friend, Europe doesn’t care if you are Greek OR Romanian in this case:
Have a look at the Treaty of Maastricht:
I Copy – Paste a snippet:
RIGHT TO VOTE AND STAND FOR ELECTIONS
gives every citizen of the Union the right to vote and stand as a candidate in municipal and European elections in the country where he or she lives, under the same conditions as nationals of that country.
The Treaty on European Union (also known as the ‘Maastricht Treaty’
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/services/eu-guide/living/index_en.html#11324_9
Since you live in Cyprus and you are a european citizen then you have the right to vote.
But things are not as bad as they look..
Luckily for us the British did all the hard work,, and created a political precedent:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/bulgarianandromaniannationals/
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/workerregistrationscheme/
Don’t you just love those British politician-pricks?
”you cannot take their right to vote but you can refuse them to work here”..
and if they cannot work is unlikely that they stay permanently..
–If Britain – a country that huge can argue that Romania and Burglary countries so smaller than Turkey and so far away from Britain – can effect their Economy- it wouldn’t be that hard for us to adjust some rules here and there to protect Cyprus.
Actually even inside the Annan plan that was possible:
(annan.plan.attachment5.article2.2)
The Aliens Board shall not authorise further immigration of Greek nationals if the number of permanently resident Greek nationals has reached 10 % of the number of resident Cypriot citizens who hold the internal {component state} citizenship status of the Greek Cypriot {component state} nor shall it authorize further immigration of Turkish nationals if the number of permanently resident Turkish nationals has reached 10% of the number of resident Cypriot citizens who hold the internal {component state} citizenship status of the Turkish Cypriot {component state}. For the purpose of this Article, persons who are citizens of both Cyprus and Greece or Turkey shall be counted as citizens of Cyprus only.
(annan.plan.attachment5.article2.2)
/…..All the obove means that Cyprus would had been save from both Greek And Turkish Immigrants for EVER..
..But in order to accomplish this J we first need to find a solution with a central government to the problem.
I am not a racist and actually in personal level i don’t mind Turkish people (even the one that look like Gypsies) but we cannot speak for a sustainable economy with more than 50.000 turkish Settlers. (at least for the first 10 years) There numbers are JUST SO VAST.. don’t forget that GC economy will also have to absorbe the TC..
/We can only imagine how Catastrophic (for both communities) a Turkish settlers amnesty can be for cyprus..
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
”A fair partition (20/80?) would prevent Turkey from having any influence Greek Cypriot affairs”
That is also a false argument i am afraid jerry,
With a partition its quite unlikely TC could control their borders and refuse the entrance of Turkish Settlers since their ”economy” will be depended upon Turkey.
Graphs have already proven us that the number of Turkish Settlers in the present status quo can only go UP..
OK.. sure i agree.. a partition will be swell for GC for NOW since our economy won’t be affected and Turkish Settlers would be a TC cancer ONLY.. but things i am afraid just aren’t that simple..
IN THE LONG TERM there is a highly probable scenario that partition would be CATASTROPHIC choice for GC side also.
Why?
But because Cyprus is just a small island my friend .. a Bloody rock for christ sake!
..If History has proven us One thing over the years.. is that: BORDERS and WALLS never last forever..
OK lets say we split the island in two,
we sacrifice TC that are practically cypriots to Turkey
Now imagine after awhile after you and I are both Dead a time Comes that the Borders collapse Whats going to happen in Cyprus Next My friend?
You cannot base the future of your entire people in such a shortsighted solution.
Control of the Borders is probably one of the most important things GC and TC can gain from a federated solution NOW
But i strongly believe we both have a lot more other than that to Gain also…
But unfortunately time is working against for both communities right now- in favor only of Turkey…
wtf?
i just posted a (long) comment and it disappeared?
i don’t think i have the courage to write it again..
Sorry K, multilink posts always go into the spam queue and I was watching Chelsea beat Man Utd.
K, I’m actually reading and enjoying your contributions and then before I could stop myself I found myself ticking LIKE.
Yeah, me too. It’s actually a pleasure to read some carefully-considered analysis from someone who is knowledgeable in such matters, and more significantly, isn’t basing his analysis on rancour or bitterness.
It makes a refreshing change from others who still need to abuse and insult, and claim 300 year-old wounds as just cause.
Hi Ian,
I am in the States here and I have been out of the loop for a bit. But I too appreciate the constructive dialogue here.
I look at your statement though, and I have said here before that personally I do not think this division will ever get put back together. I even went as far as to say that there is going to be a war before this all finishes. That is my personal opinion. Time is just not looking favorable on this and I certainly hope that I am wrong.
You said,
“So, Kyriacos, all your sophisticated economic analysis, and yours too Thomas, will be for naught unless you can come up with a scheme of reunified government that really does safeguard the minority TCs in a fair and impartial way. And that’s a little more than impersonal economic rhetoric, guys…it goes to every facet of normal societal living.”
I have a bit different view than most if not all. I do not feel that TC’s have ever looked at this country as their own. They are just marking time. My comments come from, I cannot say frustration as it is not my country, but sad realization that TC’s have to do everything right to make this work and I do not believe they are even close. And I believe they do not even care. They allow corruption, they do not care about the land as I mentioned before in references to riding my bike in Cyprus, they take advantage of each other. They are living off of others, namely Turks and now the Brits too.
TC’s do not worry about TC’s or Turks let alone our worrying about safeguarding rights from the GC’s.
And somehow this group is suppose to rise out of the sad state of affairs and be able to meet the challenge of working with the GC in reunification. Their leadership is not equipped to do this. I know that I come down pretty hard upon them, but I just do not see the leadership.
Now to “normal societal living”
In my opinion, something that nobody mentions much, but its one of Muslims governing alongside of Christians. It just does not work well. Where are the examples in the world where it works? If you can even name one there are 50 examples that do not.
Kyriacos has written some great things that I appreciate and have learned from too. But in the end, why did the problem begin in the first place? What was the difference between a TC and a GC? Frankly, they are more alike each other in almost everything than I as an American am like either. And yet the conflict arose. What changes this fact?
In an analogy, my family owned plantations in Southern America. An interesting note, The plantation in the movie “Gone with the Wind” was based on a plantation in our family. There was a war between the North and the South. We lost the war, we lost our land. There was a definite conclusion to this conflict. There has been none of this in Cyprus. Had the American Civil war gone like the Cyprus Conflict I would be putting in for my land back and compensation of use.
Good post Thomas, and I certainly hope you’re wrong about a war too! I don’t think I agree with you that TCs have never considered Cyprus to be their motherland, as some of those I’ve spoken with have seemed to believe very fervently that they belong there. However, I think you are correct about their lack of concern for environmental issues, corruption in government and the role now being played by ex-pats. You’re right, too, about the lack of good leadership, for they don’t even begin to attack corruption in politics and business…they can’t even prevent the banks from committing fraud at will.
And to me that is why they need protection in any resolution of the Cyprus situation…simply because they have no strong and principled leaders.
I also agree with you about the problems of co-governance between Muslims and Christians, for as an Australian living in Saudi Arabia, I am very conversant with both societies. I’d have to say, in passing, that in my opinion, fundamental Christians are no easier to deal with than fundamental Muslims.
But that is why I can’t get my head around this “more like each other in almost every way”. There may be shared genes, and they may look alike, but I reckon they are as different in all meaningful ways as chalk and cheese…language, education, religion and culture. That’s why, as a bottom line, I too believe there will never be a reunification…there never was a unification in the first place.
Post 5829 Kyriacos, when you say courage, are you getting
‘stick’ for being so sensible?
Thomas, good example – your family’s plantation. What about the
American Red Indians who were so badly treated by the American
government of the day – a know a little restitution took place, but peanuts to what should have been. You could pick out so many
examples but really what is the point – it is time to move on.